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landmark
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You may have acknowledged the point before, but it still is relevant. Smile

A huge issue was job security; closing schools right and left as Emmanuel was doing, was a huge disservice to students, as well as his attempt to abolish tenure and create a temp force of inexperienced teachers. It was an assault on the very nature of the public school system.

As I believe I said in that thread or maybe some other, while the interests of teachers may not coincide 100% with students--nor should they (it might be in the interest of students for teachers to work for free, or to have their teachers' home telephone numbers--oh wait they already have mine, never mind!) of all the stakeholders in the educational system, teachers' interest are the most closely aligned to the students' interests. Almost always, the working conditions that teachers ask for--smaller class sizes, more paraprofessional support in the classroom, after school programs, greater funding for arts, less standardized testing--translates into better conditions for students. On each of those items, teachers unions have gotten enormous pushback from politicians and so-called education administrators. Where is the outrage over that?
rockwall
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I just wish that when anyone mentions that teachers get paid on average xx dollars per year that they would adjust that number based on the actual number of days worked per year in comparison to anyone else with a full time job with the avg number of days off that most people in the private sector get.

The average American worker:
52 weeks x 5 Days/week = 260 Days
4 weeks vacation/year = -16 Days*
10 holidays/year= -10
3 sick days/year= -3
3 personal days/year= -3
Total days worked 228 Days/ year
* 4 weeks vacation AFTER 4-5 years of employment
Work day is 8 hours WORK with 1/2 hr. unpaid lunch and 2/15 minutes break/day

The average teacher:
School year = 180 days
14 Holidays/year= -14
5 personal days/year= -5
7 Sick days/year- -7
? Vacation days/year= ? *
Total days worked 154 Days/ year
*I have heard rumors teachers get vacation time as well but not confirmed
Work day is 7 hours including a 1/2 hour PAID lunch and one hour FREE period/day

So, when the Median salary of a teacher is $46,00 but they only have to work %67 as many days, you could say that salary is equivalent to someone making $68,000.

Also, despite the 26 hour work days that landmark claims, an analysis done by the Bureau of Labor and Statistics paints a different picture.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2011/10/......cations/
landmark
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Does your wife, rockwall, who IIRC is a teacher of the blind, agree with the npr assessment? (BTW your math is off, you're double counting holidays and vacation time).

Those kinds of comparisons are silly anyway, since they are not comparisons of the same job or the same compensation. And the article itself is filled with caveats about the methodology of the very study referenced. But really rockwall, I think you should switch jobs with Mrs. rockwall for two years and then let's talk. Seriously.

For those who haven't read the article BTW, it starts off like this...

Quote:
Ohio’s Teacher of the Year skipped breakfast.

Worthington middle school teacher Tim Dove had a cup of coffee at home and was in his classroom by 6:45 Monday morning. Twenty minutes later students began to wander in. Some chatted with Dove, the 2011 Teacher of the Year, about everything that happened the night before; others made a beeline for him to get help with last night’s homework. It’s not uncommon for him to be with a dozen kids by 7:15 a.m., Dove said.

About twelve hours — and one Caféteria lunch — later, Dove would pack his bags to head home to his wife and dog and three hours grading practice research paper citations, a set of essays and a geography quiz and preparing for Tuesday’s classes.

Dove says work days like this are standard for him and his colleagues at Worthington’s Phoenix Middle School, which has a longer school day and a different model than most traditional public schools.

But they’re not the norm.


And ends like this...
Quote:
When we got Tim Dove, the Teacher of the Year, to describe his day to us that Monday evening, he stepped us through it, hour-by-hour, as accurately as he could.

Dove has been teaching for 31 years. As an Ohio State University adjunct professor, book author and educator, he’s not the norm, and his work day isn’t necessarily either.

“All I can tell you is what I do and the people I work with here do,” he said.


You know it's really, really interesting to me the energy that people put into disparaging teachers, when there are so many other obvious targets, so many other folks given a free pass on what they do. And yet somehow it's always back to teachers as if we were driving Rolls-Royces on the public dime.

Meanwhile, the folks who are driving Rolls (okay, Teslas) on the public dime are hailed as heroes. (Cf. the mass media's treatment of charter school boss Eva Moskowitz, who collects a $475,000 salary and who just spent $3.6 million in an ad campaign to decry the fact that the NYC mayor expects her to pay rent for the space she steals from public school children. A NY State judge has just ruled that since charter schools are not public schools, the state has no right to audit them. Got that? No financial accountability with the public's money at all. But I digress.)

In some other thread long ago, I posited that people like to rag on teachers and cops because those figures stir up childhood authority issues in a world where people feel they have declining personal power. I think this is really the heart of it. There's a real failure of democracy, a real sense that in the things that matter, we no longer have much say in what happens, only the rich do. And that realization breeds all kinds of pathologies and cognitive dissonance, so people look for people to blame. But only certain people are allowed to be blamed and that's reinforced by the mainstream media. Okay, I've had it for this thread, I've said way too much, time for others to talk about what their work life is like.
balducci
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, rockwall wrote:

Also, ... an analysis done by the Bureau of Labor and Statistics paints a different picture.

http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2011/10/......cations/

Did you miss the follow-up? Or just ignore it?

http://stateimpact.npr.org/ohio/2012/03/......ly-work/
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Yes. The follow up article and the results of the Gates Foundation study certainly paint a different picture than the BLS survey, which only asked teachers to report how they spent the 24 hour period prior to participating in the survey. It's quite clear that the average teacher works over ten hours per day.
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Rockwall also talks about the "school year" being only 180 days. That may be true, but I believe that is only instructional days. I suspect teachers have work they must do before term starts and after term ends, when the students are not in the class room, i.e. outside of the "school year" defined by instructional days alone.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
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Quite clear from one study relying on self-reporting, anyway.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
balducci
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On Mar 20, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Quite clear from one study relying on self-reporting, anyway.

The BLS study also used self-reporting.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/......rns.html

See second paragraph of document above. Subjects self-reported their data in a time diary format.

Of course, maybe you _were_ talking about the BLS study ... though I doubt it.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
balducci
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Maybe you meant self-selected? I haven't looked into it, I'm not sure whether either one or possibly both relied on self-selection of subjects.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
rockwall
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, landmark wrote:
Does your wife, rockwall, who IIRC is a teacher of the blind, agree with the npr assessment? (BTW your math is off, you're double counting holidays and vacation time).

Those kinds of comparisons are silly anyway, since they are not comparisons of the same job or the same compensation. And the article itself is filled with caveats about the methodology of the very study referenced. But really rockwall, I think you should switch jobs with Mrs. rockwall for two years and then let's talk. Seriously.

...


When I met my wife 9 years ago, she told me that she thought she had the best job in the world. After being married to her for 8 years, I don't think she was far off. I seriously considered going back to college to get a degree to do what she does. Now, like you did when you were a teacher, she works a lot of extra hours. (And that's not including the even more hours that she volunteers free of charge to work for her non-profit foundation for the blind). But, after coming from a career where I regularly worked months at a time from 9am to 1pm, 7 days a week, it takes a lot to impress me. You see, it's not just teachers that put in extra time.

I do know a little bit about the teaching profession also being married to a life long teacher. My wife's parents having been teachers their whole lives. My son's father-in-law having been a teacher his entire life. And of course having been through the public school system and having been to college and having raised five kids in the public school system I've dealt with a wide variety of teachers. I've had good teachers and I've had horrible teachers.

Sure, it's not the same as having been a teacher but I do know a bit.

Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, landmark wrote:
...
You know it's really, really interesting to me the energy that people put into disparaging teachers, when there are so many other obvious targets, so many other folks given a free pass on what they do.

...


I actually am very impressed by most teachers. It's not a job I would want or could do. (What my wife get's to do is much different than your average classroom teacher.) And I can see why some teachers get burnt out. I have a much bigger problem with the teacher unions than with teachers themselves. I think people like you spend much more time disparaging the profession than those on the other side do. Just look at your posts. All you've done is told us how horrible the job is. No wonder there's a teacher shortage. People have been brainwashed into believing it's the worst profession in America to get involved in! The biggest urban legend in this country is how horrible the job is. In fact, you get a guaranteed job that no matter how lousy you are, it's next to impossible to get rid of you, you get great benefits and a good pension and you get more days off than anyone else in the country. Now, if you're a good person who got into the profession for the right reason, you probably work hard and put in long hours.

It's the crappy and burnt out teachers who give the profession a bad name and they're the ones that the union protects. In any private sector job, if you're crappy at your job, you probably get fired. In the public schools, you get to collect the same paycheck as the super stars.
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, rockwall wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, landmark wrote:
Does your wife, rockwall, who IIRC is a teacher of the blind, agree with the npr assessment? (BTW your math is off, you're double counting holidays and vacation time).

Those kinds of comparisons are silly anyway, since they are not comparisons of the same job or the same compensation. And the article itself is filled with caveats about the methodology of the very study referenced. But really rockwall, I think you should switch jobs with Mrs. rockwall for two years and then let's talk. Seriously.

...


When I met my wife 9 years ago, she told me that she thought she had the best job in the world. After being married to her for 8 years, I don't think she was far off. I seriously considered going back to college to get a degree to do what she does. Now, like you did when you were a teacher, she works a lot of extra hours. (And that's not including the even more hours that she volunteers free of charge to work for her non-profit foundation for the blind). But, after coming from a career where I regularly worked months at a time from 9am to 1pm, 7 days a week, it takes a lot to impress me. You see, it's not just teachers that put in extra time.

I do know a little bit about the teaching profession also being married to a life long teacher. My wife's parents having been teachers their whole lives. My son's father-in-law having been a teacher his entire life. And of course having been through the public school system and having been to college and having raised five kids in the public school system I've dealt with a wide variety of teachers. I've had good teachers and I've had horrible teachers.

Sure, it's not the same as having been a teacher but I do know a bit.

Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, landmark wrote:
...
You know it's really, really interesting to me the energy that people put into disparaging teachers, when there are so many other obvious targets, so many other folks given a free pass on what they do.

...


I actually am very impressed by most teachers. It's not a job I would want or could do. (What my wife get's to do is much different than your average classroom teacher.) And I can see why some teachers get burnt out. I have a much bigger problem with the teacher unions than with teachers themselves. I think people like you spend much more time disparaging the profession than those on the other side do. Just look at your posts. All you've done is told us how horrible the job is. No wonder there's a teacher shortage. People have been brainwashed into believing it's the worst profession in America to get involved in! The biggest urban legend in this country is how horrible the job is. In fact, you get a guaranteed job that no matter how lousy you are, it's next to impossible to get rid of you, you get great benefits and a good pension and you get more days off than anyone else in the country. Now, if you're a good person who got into the profession for the right reason, you probably work hard and put in long hours.

It's the crappy and burnt out teachers who give the profession a bad name and they're the ones that the union protects. In any private sector job, if you're crappy at your job, you probably get fired. In the public schools, you get to collect the same paycheck as the super stars.


I agree. My work is here is done. But I did not do it. Rockwell did. Thanks. Smile
If I were to agree with you. Then we would both be wrong. As of Apr 5, 2015 10:26 pm I have 880 posts. Used to have over 1,000
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:

Quite clear from one study relying on self-reporting, anyway.

The BLS study also used self-reporting.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/......rns.html

See second paragraph of document above. Subjects self-reported their data in a time diary format.

Of course, maybe you _were_ talking about the BLS study ... though I doubt it.


I was talking about the Gates Foundation study.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Note that the Gates study asked respondents about the school year, not just the previous day before the survey was taken.

My ex-wife, to whom I was married for seventeen years and with whom I still have an excellent relationship, was a teacher for the entire time we were married and still is. (This is her 42nd year as a teacher.) I can personally vouch for the fact that her work hours were very much in line with the Gates study.
landmark
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Quote:
I think people like you spend much more time disparaging the profession than those on the other side do. Just look at your posts. All you've done is told us how horrible the job is. No wonder there's a teacher shortage.


Really rockwall, I thought you were writing a reasonable, measured reply, and then this. I can't let that stand as it's pretty much a personal attack.

I've dedicated a good deal of my adult life to teaching in many different settings, both public and private. Whether I am hired or not, I am a teacher. I've known that since high school. That's what I am. That's what I do.

In no way is advocating for better pay and conditions for teachers disparaging the profession. Your reply there is, yet again, an example of the extraordinary lengths people go to to cure their cognitive dissonance over the way some cities treat some of their most valuable employees. Your wife's family are teachers. That's not unusual, it often runs in families, it does in mine. Show your family some respect and ask them what they think should be done that will allow them to perform their jobs better.
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Quote:
On Mar 20, 2014, stoneunhinged wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fishbowl_(conversation)


Have you used this exercise?

What was your result?

In a teaching context it appears to be potentially chaotic, unless there are some "experts" who cannot be tapped out of the fishbowl.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but I find this interesting.
stoneunhinged
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No, I haven't used it, because I had just heard about it when I posted.

Remember that I'm not a real teacher. I'm a college professor, so I get really long breaks to think about what I do. The semester hasn't started yet, so I haven't tried it.

I don't think the exercise would work without a teacher. The teacher would have to tap out the experts, just like you said. The teacher would also have to go around whispering (to those who haven't entered the fishbowl yet): "don't you have something to say? Don't be shy!"

It is potentially chaotic, to be sure. But, you know, that's what we teachers get paid for. We have to structure the learning experience as it happens. Otherwise everyone could just watch YouTube videos. You know, like they learn magic these days.
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Well, if you do try it out, let us know how it goes. Could be interesting. You might even want to "seed" any fishbowl discussions with a ringer who makes assertions that are outrageous on their face but actually have validity when probed.

. . . and now back to our regularly scheduled thread.
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Acesover wrote:
Quote:
By the way I am not railing against teachers as you say. I am saying they are not under paid around here.

Teachers are underpaid in Pennsylvania. Perhaps teachers are less underpaid there than elsewhere, but if the top yearly salary for a someone with a Phd, or even just a Master's degree, and 30 years experience, is only $80,000 dollars, then the teachers are grossly underpaid. In industry, the top yearly salary for that level of education and experience is typically anywhere from $120,000 up to $200,000, depending on the field. For some fields, the top salary might be even higher than $200,000 a year.

And, as landmark wrote, the average salary for a teacher in Pennsylvania is $47,000. (My research found it was $49,000).

acesover wrote:
Quote:
By the way I am not railing against teachers as you say. I am saying they are not under paid around here. Where you live what is the average (mean) salary and what do teachers make? As I said before you get paid for what you accomplish not for tenure in the real world. You completely ignored their demands for total payment of their healthcare and time off for hurting their throat for talking to much or a 23% pay raise in 3 years. Not to mention the deal they want if both husband and wife work on their healthcare.

The teachers there had no new contract for 3 years, during which time the teachers pay remained constant, which means their disposable income decreased each year due to both inflation (a minor effect) and increases in medical costs (a major effect). A 3.5% raise over 6 years results in a 22.9% raise in pay in the 6th year. That's a bit different than getting nothing for 3 years while costs increase and then getting 23% over 3 years, but the difference is very small.

So, the real story is that the teachers, who are grossly underpaid for their level of education and experience, and even more underpaid for their first few years of teaching, got raises that are approximately 3.5% per year for 6 years.

In other words, while what you wrote is literally true for the three year period you refer to, your statement is a misleading because the previous three years are relevant.

Also, if a teacher is out for a medical reason, that's between the department head, who can demand a note from a doctor, the teacher, and the teacher's doctor. There are serious condition and illnesses that can lead to serious damage to the vocal cords. There are also some serious throat diseases that lead to a condition similar to laryngitis. It is not necessarily unreasonable that this teacher was out sick because of this.

That particular issue is a pet peeve. In an editorial in the local paper, a reporter railed against a teacher being out for a long time. The reporter had no idea who the teacher was, he was just reading public records. My wife, who is also a teacher, is friends with the other teacher who was ill. He had a very serious illness and was legitimately out sick. Worse, in the midst of a scary condition that left him seriously disabled, he was subjected to a veiled attack in public - even though his name was not mentioned, he knew that many people who knew him would figure out it was him, but wouldn't know the full story. And, the full story is none of their business.

So, I take exception with your statement you are not railing against teachers.

acesover wrote:
Quote:
The question here was asked how much should a teacher make after going to college and earning a BA and sometimes a masters degree. That answer is simple. What the market bears.

Market? There is no market here. This is government. In most districts, the school board approves the contract, then the board of aldermen (alder-people?) approve the contract; then finally the mayor approves the contract.

For this to be a market, then teachers would have to be hired individually without a shared contact. But, this is not possible. If teachers were to individually try to negotiate their salary ever few years, the older, more experienced, and generally better teachers, would not be hired to save money. History proves that. Also, if citizens are willing to rationalize that representing a 11.08% raise over 3 years (3.5% a year for 3 years) is a 23% raise over 3 years, and/or willing to attack people for being out sick without detailed knowledge of the situation, then the unions become necessary to protect the teachers.

For schools to be part of the free market, schools would have to be entirely privatized. There are serious equity issues with doing that. The public schools are a good thing.

All large city organizations have unions to protect the employees, whether the fire dept., the police dept., or the teachers. And, teachers are invariably the largest part of the city budget, and their contract is typically settled after the police and fire department contracts. Often, cities drag out settling the contract to keep the teachers pay constant because raising taxes is either politically unpopular or economically untenable. When it's economically untenable, that usually means the schools are already underfunded, and such districts usually have both large attrition of teachers and poor schools.

acesover wrote:
Quote:
One should be judged on ones results not what education they have. Truthfully I know a lot of college grads that are not that bright in any field, and have very little social skills and are just as far as I am concerned unemployable. Because they went to college and earned a teaching degree does not mean they are entitled to anything more than any other college grad and should be judged on their demand and their skills. It also does not guarantee them a job. in fact here one must be connected in order to get a teaching position. Nepotism and cronyism is rampant here.

Yes, and this is why teachers have a period of several years where they can be let go for any reason, and many are laid off before they get tenure.

I know many college grads who are very bright and have great social skills. These are the people to consider.

Perhaps there is nepotism and cronyism in your school district. I do not believe that is common. I know many teachers, and many interviewed for jobs in areas they'd never been to before and where they didn't know anyone. They were hired. This seems to be the very common. That applies to my mother, my wife, and to other teachers I know.

But, I can't say you're wrong. I'm sure it happens. I do doubt that represents the typical case. Most school administrators have the welfare of the students in mind.

You mention a lot of negative qualities regarding teachers and the hiring process; mentioning unemployable college graduates; teachers who are under-qualified or incompetent; those who abusing the system by being out-sick for bad reasons; and being hired because of nepotism and cronyism. I agree, all those things must happen, but I do not believe those are representative of the vast majority of teachers, and thus concentrating on those issues in general seems pointless. If there are specific teachers who are incompetent and/or who are abusing the system, they should be dealt with. While it is difficult to lay off teachers with tenure, it can and does happen. The administration has to document issues over time for that to happen. But, such cases are not representative of most teachers and not relevant in a discussion of teacher pay or teachers in general. They are the rare exception, not the rule.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
tommy
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How can one accept an offer and then reasonably claim it is not enough?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Easy. Without effective representation or bargaining power, sometimes you have no choice.
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