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Ken Northridge Inner circle Atlantic City, NJ 2392 Posts |
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On Mar 25, 2014, The Great Zucchini wrote: 1. I’m sorry my child got sick and I had to cancel the party. 2. My husband lost his job and we cannot afford such an elaborate party this year. 3. We’ve had a death in the family and need to cancel the party. What’s better for business in the long run? “Tough luck. I’m running a business here. You lose.” Or “I understand completely. I’ll return your deposit at once and hopefully we can make it for another time.”
"Love is the real magic." -Doug Henning
www.KenNorthridge.com |
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Jolly Roger V.I.P. Sedona, Arizona 1667 Posts |
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On Mar 24, 2014, Ken Northridge wrote: I do exactly what you do Ken. I never take a deposit, and never will. I have never used a contract. I used to respond by snail mail, but these days it is all email. I have been doing kids shows nearly all my life, and rarely have a problem. JR |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
I am with Ken's last post on deposits. If I took deposits, my attitude would be, sick child or economic crash, return the deposit. Decided to bring the kids to the cinema at the last moment instead, I keep the deposit. I would have a lot of flexibility in there.
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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pbj100 Special user 516 Posts |
Hi zucchini,
I think others have answered for me , But to clarify I think keeping the deposit would put the performer at a disadvantage in the long term. I remmember when I was on roundtable commitie that they had a policy of never booking a performer again if they kept a deposit or wanted a cancellation fee if an event was canceled |
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LMLipman Elite user Falls Church, Va. 443 Posts |
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On Mar 24, 2014, Ken Northridge wrote: I follow Ken's method. In a dozen years I've only had one show that got cancelled because of weather without being rescheduled, and I've had a few postponed because the birthday kid got sick. |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Ken, hey pal, the 'good guy' factor is one I'm a strong advocate of in what we do, no doubt about it. I actually have a different kind of policy than most people with deposits in the world, and how they deal with them. For instance, I have created a strong book or you won't get a spot-kind of urgency for years, meaning, 'I have an 11 or a 1 00 spot left, which one works for you?' Yep, you can def. call me back, however, the spot will probably be gone by sometime day. I can't even explain to you how fast my spots go'. They put down a deposit and lock it up quickly. I book so far out, that parents in my area, would think it was odd if I didn't ask for one, because they know how quickly I book.
Now, parents could use extra time, without a deposit with some of you, still pondering if you're the direction they are going in, but I don't hold spots and let them know that any pondering time, will most likely cost them the time slot. Now, my point isn't weather people should take them or not. I can't begin to know how people in Ireland, will react, as Tony suggests, wouldn't begin to. My point is either take them or don't. Be fine with it, but if you do, it's not refundable, because it takes away the point of it. Now, I never run into someone wanting a refund back. I can count on one hand in 20 years the times that it's happened, however, it brings me to the good guy factor. Things happen. Parents know this about me. If a child gets sick or they have to leave town, etc. My deposit can be used anytime. They've already paid. It will never expire. I had someone a while ago, that had to cancel and said we are going to do party next year. The following year, we did party and they only owed me original balance of what was owed. No penalty, nothing extra at all. When you pay deposit, you don't get it back, because you're taking a spot from someone else, but you may use it anytime. Now, I do a ton in my communities, fundraisers, school auctions, I help raise money for many organizations. I bring this up because it's important. I create good will and the 'good guy', humanizing factor at my shows. When you do this, any rules that you have, are usually understood. My spots go quickly and you need to lock it up, is my mentality. I charge preschools 350 and normally charge them a 200 dollar deposit as well. I respect those that don't take deposits, but having a no refund deposit mentality, I promise, has not created bad will, especially when I still allow for 'thing's happen', also. Once again, humanize at every show, get to know clients, and most rules, etc. are going to be accepted. I'm proof of it. Love you bro, and I hope this makes sense. |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Also, most people find out availability and book, however the pondering might come with price or that the open spot I have is week from their desired time, etc. I just eliminate some extra pondering time. People that call me are calling for me, not cold searching, but their are still things to ponder, like what I have open, etc. I say, 'here's what's open, it will gone in an hour', people move fast.
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gmsmagic1 Elite user 405 Posts |
My father was a contracts lawyer for over 40 years, so I know first hand just how badly people can get burned without a binding agreement and a deposit. I'm not sure why so many people frown upon using contracts or requiring a deposit, as if to imply that this makes you less trusting of others. As professionals providing a service for a future date, it's an expected part of doing business. If someone isn't willing to sign a contract or provide a deposit, I immediately walk since that is a huge red flag. A good contract protects both parties. I personally would never hire anyone for an important event if they didn't have a contract since I would feel much more vulnerable to them being a no-show, and I would be much more inclined to question their professionalism unless they already have a long-standing reputation in the marketplace. A good contract gives both parties some peace of mind, and helps you avoid any surprises regarding expectations.
As a DJ/Magician that cornered the bar-batmitzvah market for over 30 years, I consistently booked parties 2-3 years out. So granted, my situation is very different in that most my parties involved much more of a time commitment and yielded about five times more money than a straight kids magic show. I can't afford to not have a firm booking backed by a contract and deposit or I would never be able to plan a social life around my schedule. So I guess this really boils down to risk versus gain. If you feel you have more to risk or lose than to gain by having a contract or deposit, then trust your instincts as long as you can sleep at night. My risk was much greater due to the amount of money and time involved. Now purely from a business perspective, as Zucchini pointed out, contracts and/or deposits make for a great closing tool by creating a sense of urgency. I've had plenty of rescheduled events, but always with reasonable notification. But I've very rarely had any cancellations in the past 30 years, and I genuinely believe this is because of the fact that I've always used contracts. Now if a client needs to reschedule and gives adequate notice, I always make it clear to them that I will honor their deposit towards the future booking. If the cancellation were ever for extreme reasons like Ken mentioned and I didn't pass up shows due to this booking, I would not hesitate to return their deposit as a goodwill gesture. But lets be realistic folks! Without a contract or deposit, people are much more likely to show a total disregard for your time and cancel last minute. In over 30 years, I've NEVER once had a last minute cancellation, and I was doing well over 125 shows per year - which is a lot for a DJ/Magician doing 3-4 hour gigs. I would be willing to bet that nobody out there that doesn't use contracts or deposits and does at least this many shows per year can make that same statement. Now just to be fair, I've had 2 shows postponed at the last minute due to weather. But neither was a cancellation. They were both due to snow storms. And my contract allows for a complete refund if it's due to an act of God. Just another example of how a good contract protects both parties. Now the original poster Mark requested feedback regarding deposit and cancellation policies. Just to clarify one thing, these policies are meaningless if they aren't in writing. That is why I kept eluding to the contract. Most people would feel idiotic handing over a deposit if it isn't spelled out in a contract with terms and conditions. At a bare minimum, they would expect a receipt, but this doesn't protect them. - Gary |
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts |
It's important to have some kind of contract, but I don't see that deposits make sense. From my point of view, they make my tax returns much more complicated, as every payment ends up being split. The additional work involved in entering every payment in correct chronology, then splitting the payments over the end of the tax year, etc, is simply a lot of unnecessary work....not to mention twice the amount of banking, repayments of deposits, etc.
As to clients cancelling, in my experience, it's extremely rare. And folks will always have some excuse. I tell my clients quite clearly that they may cancel without any reason, and there will be no penalty. Once, a tennis club cancelled a show (in December!) the day before, and only when I called them. they are now black-listed, and I will not work for them in the future, without full payment up front. If I did ever turn up to a booked and confirmed party, and there was no one there, then I would definitely go to the Small Claims Court - unless - the client came up with an excuse (such as they got stranded abroad, or something). If they were to do that, I'd just swallow my pride, and let it go. In the case of a client hanging up on me after I called her to ask why I wasn't told about a cancellation, I would have no qualms about taking them to Court for the full fee. |
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TonyB2009 Inner circle 5006 Posts |
Potty, a sensible approach. I always waive a cancellation fee if they have a reason for cancelling. No one does it just to **** off the magician!
Check out Tony's new thriller Dead or Alive http://www.amazon.co.uk/Alive-Varrick-Bo......n+carson
http://www.PartyMagic.ie |
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Potty the Pirate Inner circle 4632 Posts |
There is another thing to consider - those of us who perform hundreds of shows a year make a very healthy living - and there are no costs involved if a party is cancelled, other than the loss of the fee, assuming that another show could have been booked (a reasonable assumption).
To me, the miniscule cost that cancellations have cost me over the years (about 5 in total), is almost irrelevant compared to my income. For this reason alone, my conscience says I shouldn't complain if I have the occasional problem. |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Gary, you couldn't of said it better in my opinion. I'm baffled and flabbergasted at some of what I'm reading. Potty, just why would you tell parents there in no penalty for canceling and then blacklist them if they do it last minute. Isn't that a penalty? I'm sorry, but what? You tell parents that they can cancel at anytime, for anything, and to no cost?
Guys, I'm sorry, but parents are lucky to get a spot, and you can create the urgency, and keep it through a career. Parents thank me when I get them in, and I treat it like they are as lucky to have me as vice versa. Look we are a legitimate business. Treat it that way. If you don't take deposits, fine, but I think you create so much more by saying, 'I wouldn't wait'. Let's take May for example-I have 30-35 shows booked in May right now. It's locked up. I don't have the curiosity as to wondering if someone will cancel, because they don't and won't. I don't get last second calls, because they assume they can't get a spot, anyway. It's an overall urgency that I started off my career with and it's like clockwork-robotic, people lock it down, and it should be part of your phone closing. I haven't written in a spot in years. I don't pencil in anything-lock it up or it goes to someone else. They can reschedule anytime, but to just cancel. Nope. Like I've said before, if parents and kids want specifically you, then you can ask for anything. This might surprise you-I don't do contracts for bday parties. I do for festivals, public shows, etc, but for bday parties, they pay deposit on phone, and I say I will see you ............ no email conf. either. My point is that you can do anything, and it will be accepted if you get to know your audience well. Thanks for listening, superstars. |
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gmsmagic1 Elite user 405 Posts |
Some people here don't feel that deposits make sense or are necessary, yet they won't hesitate to take someone to small claims court.
Let me put this in perspective. Small claims fees vary by State, but just filing for a hearing costs between $40 and $60. You then pay a sheriff around $12 to $15 to serve the defendant so that they show up, and you also pay to mail out a certified summons with return receipt. The burden is on you to prove fault. If you win in court, the defendant is not forced to pay you anything and does not face criminal charges if they don't pay. So your only recourse if they don't pay is to file court fees of over $50 to put a lien on wages or other assets if they have any, and it's your responsibility to provide the court with all their asset and employer info so that this can be pursued. The court will supply you with an attorney for 30 minutes at the measly fee of $40 to provide you with some guidance on how to proceed. If you lose in your initial hearing, you can file an appeal within 10 days at a cost of $50, and you still have no guarantees of collecting anything. In the end, only 25% of all small claims cases actually pay out any money to you! This is a fact regardless of State. All this headache over what may amount to a $400 show fee! Is that really worth it in the end? If you simply collect $250 up front, the chances of ever getting a last minute cancellation or no show are probably less than 5%, and if it happens, you've already acquired more than half your money to cover the inconvenience so you can chalk it up as a learning experience and move on. Now I ask folks out there, do you still not see the value in collecting a deposit? Of course if you're going to offer a full refund as long as the client has any excuse whatsoever for last minute cancellations, this totally irrational mind-set completely defeats the purpose of a deposit, but helps me understand why one would have difficulty comprehending its value. What's even more perplexing to me is that the person that said they would offer a full refund is the same person that doesn't believe in collecting a deposit. That being the case, there is nothing to refund anyway since they haven't collected any money yet! What a great deal for this persons clients. They are absorbing all the risk and willing to take on all the loss for their time and lost revenue, while the client isn't committed to anything. If I ever find a business transaction like that, you can sign me up! That's like doing business with Larry, Moe and Curly. lol - Gary |
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gmsmagic1 Elite user 405 Posts |
After re-reading prior postings, I just want to correct one thing I said. I implied that someone said they would offer a full refund to anyone with any excuse. Actually, they never mentioned refunds, so that comment was not completely relevant. What was actually stated is that there would be no penalty for cancellations even if the client has no excuse. This is actually worse since you're penalizing yourself, so I won't even attempt to tackle that train wreck scenario.
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pbj100 Special user 516 Posts |
Hi,
Most of us get very few cancellations , Those that do cancel normaly have a good excuse . We earn a lot of money compared to most people surlry loosing the odd show is not the end of the world financially . As I said I have never taken anyone to claims court. I just don't see the benifit of a deposit . If you need the money I suppose that's a bit different or if you are getting lots of cancellations . Though if the later is the case I would be looking closely at my act Phil |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Gary, I couldn't agree more. I was going to respond to last person, but couldn't. It will become about something else, he's missing the point is only response.
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
[quotea You make great points and something that I've known for years
On Mar 25, 2014, JoshLondonMagic wrote: Zucchini brings up a great point and one I discovered when really getting deposits. My fee for my show is 300 and I require a $100 non-refundable deposit. This means on the day if the show the client only owes $200. Here's what I have noticed: The client is more likely to tip me when I require a deposit because the amount they are paying right then and there is lower. If I wasn't to do a deposit it would be less likely to get a tip if they had to pay $300 all at once. It's kind of like they forgot they gave a deposit. Josh [/quote] |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Gary. also, wouldn't small claims court create the bad will that they were trying to stay away from in the first place? It's just soooooo confusing. Lol
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pbj100 Special user 516 Posts |
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On Mar 28, 2014, The Great Zucchini wrote: [/quote] I think this may be more in your mind than reality I charge no deposit yet get a tip after vertualy every show |
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The Great Zucchini Inner circle 1347 Posts |
Correct me if I'm wrong Phil, but aren't you charging in the 150-200 dollar range. You're not charging 300-350, correct?
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