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W. Mercury New user 80 Posts |
Invisible Deck.
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gypsyfish Veteran user 383 Posts |
Cinema Verite.
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saysold1 Eternal Order Recovering Cafe addict with only 10795 Posts |
I Would also add done metal bending to you stroll mix. Jon Allen's "Flexion" is great as well as quantum bender and some spoon bending techniques. Audiences love this stuff. It is also visual and close up.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of aerospace level quality, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
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bond19 Inner circle Blackpool, England 1338 Posts |
Listen to brehaut....
A while ago Bob Cassidy suggested that I should decide if I wanted to be seen as a magician or mind-reader (I was doing sponge balls and ending with a coin bend). I've now left behind them red balls and other stuff and the change for me and my audience has been very positive indeed. I'm not there yet, but I'm growing in my knowledge, skills and performance every day. It really is a choice you have to make. But choice is a good thing right? Chris |
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote: Consider Richard Osterlind. He does card tricks, as well as the linking rings - yet his reputation as a mentalist is phenominal.On Apr 7, 2014, JeffreyMichael1127 wrote: |
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Michael Zarek Special user Sweden 923 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 8, 2014, MichaelCGM wrote: He's entertaining but definitly not the most convincing mind reader. (don't mean this as an offence, I like Richard and still use some of his stuff) Also, he does linking rings but tries to seperate it from other effects. If there was a true mind reader/psychic than he could do magic tricks as additional entertainment. But when there's a magician than he can't be a part time psychic/mind reader.
Reader discretion is advised.
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
I often hear the the justification that Dunninger sometimes used linking rings or an egg back to open his show.
It doesn't apply to ninety-nine percent of performers because Dunninger already had a national reputation as a mind reader. An unknown performer mixing mental effects with magic tricks will be perceived as a magician, not a mentalist. |
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Michael Zarek Special user Sweden 923 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 8, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: Exactly! Can I get permission to quote you whenever a similiar disscusion pops up ? A mentalist can do magic because it's persived by lay people as easier (way easier) and something that many people can learn. A magician can't do mentalism because audience will not believe him, and mentalism is all about believability.
Reader discretion is advised.
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
It's taken a while for me to realize how true this is.
It's all about performer FOCUS and INTENT. Define what you're about as a performer. Are you an entertainer? Choose whatever works to entertain an audience. Are you a magician? Again -- choose whatever you want for your performances. Magicians can easily do MOABT and follow that with a dove production because magicians are about blending puzzles with performance into a pleasing package. No one has said performers can't do mental magic right alongside conventional magic effects. The effects performers choose are entirely their own business. Ultimately we are responsible only to our clients and audiences. But here's the thing: if you're a mentalist -- you have chosen to restrict yourself to mental-themed effects. No showy props. No half dressed assistants (sigh). No rabbits. JUST mental themed effects. Why? Because, while the intent is always to entertain...there is an additional goal in a mentalism performance: to (at the very least) convey the notion that what is happening on-stage just might be real. Set aside the whole disclaimer thing and go with the old chestnut about a magician/mentalist being an actor in the role of a magician/mentalist. For those moments on-stage, what the performer presents goes beyond presenting a puzzle. At the very least, the performer is presenting a series of mental "puzzles" and at the very best -- the performer appears to all intents and purposes to have unusual abilities that just might be for real. Definitively: one art is not better or worse than the rest. There are good magicians just as there are bad mentalists. It is purely a matter of the intent of the performance and the goals of the performer. And can we PLEASE set aside the argument that Osterlind, Dunninger and a few others perform magic? As Bob has said -- these are performers who are well known as mentalist ALREADY. They could tap dance if they wanted to -- and would not diminish their standings as mentalists. David
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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geraldbelton New user Durham, NC 63 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 8, 2014, David Thiel wrote: Kreskin plays the piano, too. |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10587 Posts |
What's funny to me is mentalists never bring up that whole Dunninger, Osterlind, Kreskin thing...only magicians seeking justification.
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote: Interesting but an untenable perspective. What it boils down to is the audience. The audience will choose to believe or not believe what they see and how they perceive it. I mix magic and mentalism in my close-up show, with extremely great results. It’s all in how one presents each as separate and non-inclusive aspects of performing. The responses and comments of my audiences are the only “justification” I need. I have people at a follow-up table, who have just seen me perform a simple coin effect at the previous table, insist that what I do is real psychic talent. Many start talking about other aspects of psychic talent that they have seen and wonder if I also possess those powers. Why? Because they will believe what they feel most comfortable believing. PLUS… the way I frame the differences between the two arts convinces some that there is, indeed something deeper at work.
On Apr 8, 2014, Mindpro wrote: What's funny to me is mentalists never bring up that whole Dunninger, Osterlind, Kreskin thing...only magicians seeking justification. I usually do not mix magic with mentalism for my stage shows, but in the rare occasions that I do, I get the same response as described above – people will believe what they are most comfortable believing. Magicians don’t need to justify themselves to you, Mindpro, or anyone else in the art. Ultimately, because most mentalism is redressed magic with an attitude. If one eliminated the magic-based tools that are used in mentalism, there would be a great deal fewer mentalists. Likewise, mentalists who do magic don’t need to justify themselves for you or anyone else in the art. Primarily because our audience is the only measure of our ability as a performer, and secondarily, unless someone making such a claim has actually witnessed the audience response to one doing both, there is real support for the claim. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
As I've quoted him before, Harlan Tarbell put it this way:
Quote:
It should be noted that there is a psychological difference in the appeal, in the manner of presentation, between what we call two branches of the mystic art – ‘magicians’ and ‘mentalists’. While both accomplish their effects by trickery, the mentalist rarely admits it. There is an important reason for this attitude of the mentalist. His mysteries of the mind are impressive only when cloaked in an atmosphere of genuine phenomena. Long experience has taught the wisdom of this serious and earnest presentation. Ample proof of these statements will be found by observance of the leading professional artists – those occupying the topmost rung being accepted as genuine by a great majority. And those words are as true today, in my opinion, as when they were first written. |
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Gordon the discombobulator Loyal user 246 Posts |
The thread is about mentalism effects in a 'strolling' setting.
Can mentalism (rather than magic) really be performed in any environment? e.g. street? walkaround? pub? or does it require a certain formality and gravitas. A serious setting for a serious act of mentalism ? I perform what I call mentalism in pubs and walkaround and that works for me. So, back to the topic, what sort of effects work best in an informal setting? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
You make a good point, Gordon. Picture Dunninger doing walk around in a Pizza Hut, wearing a red vest, funny hat and a name tag reading "Hi, my name's Joe!"
Now picture him in a dark hand-tailored suit standing center stage in a pin spot. Do you think the respective audiences will view him differently? |
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MichaelCGM Inner circle Oklahoma City 2286 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 8, 2014, Gordon the discombobulator wrote: Since this is an open forum, I won’t go into specific, named effects. That’s why I initially suggested several video sources that are readily available for the serious seeker. My experience has been that a good which-hand goes over really well. Number divinations and minor thought reading are strong. A routine that I classify as thought projection plays exceptionally well. Premonition and/or precognition are popular. A simple this/that card routine (ala Banachek) raises eyebrows, while being lighthearted and fun. And, if one doesn’t have an aversion to cards, a memorized deck leaves a good impression. |
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David Thiel Inner circle Western Canada...where all that oil is 4005 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 8, 2014, geraldbelton wrote: I give up.
Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. Except bears. Bears will kill you.
My books are here: www.magicpendulums.com www.MidnightMagicAndMentalism.com |
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geraldbelton New user Durham, NC 63 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, David Thiel wrote: Sorry, I didn't think I needed to put a smiley on that post. I thought the humor was obvious. Guess I was wrong. |
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Syndrome Regular user CANADIAN IMP 165 Posts |
Adding some mental magic to your performance isn't a crime. It will give you a new edge to your close up magic. The following quote has a few great ideas that are easy to do and give you a chance to expand your abilities when entertaining your audiences.
Quote:
On Apr 7, 2014, bond19 wrote: -All the best
Live well,
Laugh often, Love always. "Illusion is the first of all pleasures." -Voltaire (1694-1778) |
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RedDevil Inner circle Deep South 1315 Posts |
I have read this thread with much interest, thinking about multiple sides of the issue and truly trying to look at it without labels and being guilty of groupthink. (I hate it when democrats and republicans care more about being a party member than just trying to figure out the best policy, so I have been working very hard in my middle age years to dissolve any ties I have with labels or associations just because that's the way I have "always done it").
With that said, I have nothing to offer in this discussion other than the idea that the notion occurred to me that no matter what side I chose, I would simply be deciding whether a "strolling performer" in a restaurant is more believable as a magician or mentalist in isolation or whether being both would compromise the believability of either (of a strolling performer in a restaurant). Then I moved the context to stage, and I asked myself the honest question (knowing it is hard to be objective since I am not truly a layman): If a man is performing on a stage, does that improve his believability for me? I realize that I may be in the minority here, and I am not trying to convince anyone here of anything (I am not qualified to try), but my answer is a big NO. If a man is performing in a strolling gig or on a stage, whether a magician or mentalist, I am suspending disbelief because of that context. Putting themselves in a performance context (by design) pushes them into a entertainer category. That may offend some, but my astonishment and admiration and joy are not diminished just because in the back of my mind I know they are mere mortals. I admire the impact of good mentalism probably more because they "are" mortal. If they were real mindreaders, it would get old after a day or so. We would be saying, "Well, duh. He's a mindreader. Of course he can read your thoughts." And then there is just this guy on the street. He knows my birthday. He tells me my best friend's name from middle school. He tells me that I am thinking of a Rose being held by my Aunt Bonita. He takes no money from me. He just reads my mind and walks off. Now this guy I have to wonder about. This is the guy that I think, maybe, just maybe.
www.reddevilmentalism.com
F-F-U-L-Ri-F-F-Li-R-U-F-F |
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