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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Better to hit & run?! (6 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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General_Magician
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Well if that is the case Bob, then I would say it would be best to flee the scene and hope that the law would cut you a break under exigent circumstances. I would also hope that some level of common sense would prevail in the courtroom that in cases such as this, it's OK to flee the scene of the accident under these type circumstances where stopping would cause death or great bodily harm to somebody who stops.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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LobowolfXXX
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Yes, I think (as Bob suggests) the biggest problem with what I'm saying is a practical one (and not a moral one) - a slippery slope issue. Maybe the current framework is best on balance, but it does seem like in some cases, people will be left choosing between prison and coma. I hope that mob realizes they increased the odds that the next driver chooses hit & run over good Samaritan.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
General_Magician
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Yes, I think (as Bob suggests) the biggest problem with what I'm saying is a practical one (and not a moral one) - a slippery slope issue. Maybe the current framework is best on balance, but it does seem like in some cases, people will be left choosing between prison and coma. I hope that mob realizes they increased the odds that the next driver chooses hit & run over good Samaritan.


It definitely caught my attention. I would definitely take a good look around if I ever found myself accidentally hitting somebody before getting out of my vehicle to render aid. If I felt it would be too dangerous then I would just take off. Hopefully the guy I accidentally hit in such hypothetical situation would be alright. That's pretty messed up when you can't stop to render aid in such situations. It's not uncommon for some neighborhoods to over-react to something like that.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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mastermindreader
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I would make it a point in court to characterize the case as protecting ones self from an imminent attack rather than fleeing the scene of an accident.

And a lot would depend on what the defendant did AFTER he left the scene. If he just went home and waited for the police to find him his case would be considerably weaker than if he went to a safe place and immediately called in the accident and gave the police his location.
landmark
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, General_Magician wrote:
Would you be the type of guy, Landmark, who would freeze up in a situation like that, wanting to ask questions to a mob who has no interest in debating with you or answering your questions? It's not uncommon for people in some circumstances who ask questions first and shoot later end up 6 feet under. Do you think if you said to the mob "hey time out guys, I didn't mean to hit this kid, it was an accident!" Do you think they would just all the sudden decide to listen to reason?

Or would you freeze up and take a beat down that would most likely end your life? Or would you flee the scene of the accident and get criminally charged by an inflexible judicial system and a courtroom that does not always see things through lens of common sense and then end up having a criminal record follow you around the rest of your life? And remember, if you leave the scene of an accident you stand a very good chance of being branded a scum by the courtroom. The people that judge you in the courtroom in many cases do not see nor understand the reality you were facing.

I would be the type of guy to shoot first in all circumstances as I have been studying Bob Cassidy's books and can predict all outcomes with assurance--down to the very color of marker used on the birth certificate of the man who would have slugged me had I not shot him first.
S2000magician
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On Apr 10, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I hope that mob realizes they increased the odds that the next driver chooses hit & run over good Samaritan.

That hope, and $3.50, will buy you a cup of Starbuck's. Unfortunately, not much more, I suspect.
General_Magician
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I would be the type of guy to shoot first in all circumstances as I have been studying Bob Cassidy's books and can predict all outcomes with assurance--down to the very color of marker used on the birth certificate of the man who would have slugged me had I not shot him first.


You mean you would be the type to freeze up when the crap hits the fan and wouldn't be able to do what you needed to do to survive. Their are no assurances of anything in those type of situations and looking for any could earn you a coma or worse. I really believe you would freeze up in a crazy situation. I mean that when I say that too. Aside from that, I would follow the legal advice that Bob provided and simply flee the scene in such circumstances, given that a court would consider exigent circumstances. At least I hope it would.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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stoneunhinged
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I posted the wisest post in this thread, but y'all don't listen.

When someone says, "baseball", there should be a hush in the room.

Now, I ain't a lawyer, but I know a train wreck when I see one.

The point of a train wreck is that it can't be sorted out by rules. This story sets no precedents, gives us no examples to follow, establishes no guidelines. Good umpires (who are holier than judges, yet get less respect) know this: you sort it out the best you can (according to the rules), then say "Play ball!", and you don't look back on the train wreck as having set a precedent or given an example to follow or established a guideline. It was just a wreck.

Baseball is truer than law.
General_Magician
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On Apr 10, 2014, stoneunhinged wrote:
I posted the wisest post in this thread, but y'all don't listen.

When someone says, "baseball", there should be a hush in the room.

Now, I ain't a lawyer, but I know a train wreck when I see one.

The point of a train wreck is that it can't be sorted out by rules. This story sets no precedents, gives us no examples to follow, establishes no guidelines. Good umpires (who are holier than judges, yet get less respect) know this: you sort it out the best you can (according to the rules), then say "Play ball!", and you don't look back on the train wreck as having set a precedent or given an example to follow or established a guideline. It was just a wreck.

Baseball is truer than law.


I didn't understand it when you posted it. Now that you elaborated, I agree, it's a train wreck. I liked your post because I feel you are correct, it is the wisest post in the thread.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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landmark
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On Apr 10, 2014, General_Magician wrote: I really believe you would freeze up in a crazy situation. I mean that when I say that too.

Wait, *you've* been taking mindreading lessons from Bob also! How are you coming along?
I'm thinking of a red court card.
TonyB2009
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Bob, I am not a lawyer as you pointed out. But I have worked ten years in the courts, as a court reporter. So I am not an ignorant commoner either. In the particular circumstances of this case you could make an argument that the guy had to run when the mob turned on him. You would likely win. But Lobowolf's initial post is asking is it all right as a general principal to hit and run if there are dodgy people there who can render aid, so that you can go about your day undisturbed.

The answer to that is no. It is not all right to hit and run, until the mob actually turns on you. If you hit and ran, then claimed after the fact that you did not like the look of the people at the scene, you and I both know that a court is very unlikely to accept that.

Making law and setting precedent based on one case is rarely a wise move. Just because we can find one case where it might be wise to hit and run does not mean that we can extrapolate and make it a general rule.
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I agree with you completely, Tony.

Particularly with your last paragraph. Exigent circumstances need to be determined on a case by case basis. (As in Jeff's train wreck analogy)
General_Magician
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Quote:
On Apr 10, 2014, stoneunhinged wrote:
I posted the wisest post in this thread, but y'all don't listen.

When someone says, "baseball", there should be a hush in the room.

Now, I ain't a lawyer, but I know a train wreck when I see one.

The point of a train wreck is that it can't be sorted out by rules. This story sets no precedents, gives us no examples to follow, establishes no guidelines. Good umpires (who are holier than judges, yet get less respect) know this: you sort it out the best you can (according to the rules), then say "Play ball!", and you don't look back on the train wreck as having set a precedent or given an example to follow or established a guideline. It was just a wreck.

Baseball is truer than law.


I guess you could also say, that their are no rules in this case, accept to escape from the mob if possible to best preserve as much life possible for all parties. However, if it proves impossible to escape, fight dirty, their are no rules and your life is at stake. But it's also important to remain calm and not freeze up when the reality hits you that your life is in very real danger. Freezing up or trying to rationalize in your head not doing what you need to do to survive or second guessing what you need to do to survive will simply get you killed. Mobs are not rationale, are mad and will kill you and they certainly won't follow any rules or fight fair while they are doing it. When you are outnumbered like that, use every weapon you have available and escape as soon as possible.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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TonyB2009
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Quote:
On Apr 12, 2014, General_Magician wrote:
Fortunately, the law has something called exigent circumstances to hopefully give people who find themselves in such an unfortunate situation to flee with the possibility of getting any sort of hit and run charges dismissed against them in court. I mean their no guarantee they will dismiss any charges, but I suspect the court can be reasonable about a situation like this and I think the odds are highly in favor of getting such hit and run charges dismissed in this specific situation if somebody chose to flee to avoid being killed by an angry mob.

If you don't even get out of the car to check the condition of the kid you hit, then I suspect any chance of an 'exigent circumstances' defense would be flushed down the toilet.
General_Magician
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That's just a nightmare situation for anybody to find themselves in. I can just see it now, somebody accidentally hits a child, an honest mistake and the person is a law abiding citizen, pays his taxes, does the right thing, lives a clean life but just had the misfortune to accidentally hit a child. He is about to get out of the car and check on the child but sees an angry mob approaching him and he remembers reading this article about how this one guy who found himself beat nearly to death, so he doesn't get out of the car and he flees. He calls in the accident and the cops show up at the place he called in the accident, arrest and charge him for leaving the scene of an accident.

In court, the prosecutor demonizes him as a callous coward who has no heart or morals and the jury convicts him. He then has a criminal record following him around the rest of his life and his life pretty much stinks from their...all because of an accident and an angry mob. I mean, he would have otherwise gotten out and helped the kid, but because of the angry mob and what happenned to this guy in the article, he decided to play it safe and flee because he didn't want to get killed and/or be forced into a situation where he might have to take extreme measures to save his own life but such measure could very well escalate racial tensions and now he has a criminal record. An otherwise upstanding citizen getting screwed because of an angry mob and inflexible legal system. Where is the justice in that?
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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