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LobowolfXXX
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Although I consider myself a pretty strongly law & order type (apart from so-called "victimless crimes"), I have always had a certain sympathy for hit & run drivers in certain circumstances: "bad" neighborhoods + people around (so that the victim will not lack for medical attention). For the first time, though, yesterday I heard about a story that was pretty much exactly what's always been at the back of my mind:
http://www.modvive.com/2014/04/03/driver......detroit/

I kind of think there should be some sort of amnesty for someone who leaves the scene in certain circumstances, such as the above conditions + immediately calls 911 (to ensure help is on the way) + identifies himself and stays at a nearby location (for interrogation, blood alcohol testing, etc.)
Thoughts?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

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stoneunhinged
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Thoughts? Train wreck.
General_Magician
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This is probably a good case for having a concealed carry permit for self defense purposes. The mob could have easily killed him and the pistol could have leveled the playing field and deterred the mob until the police arrived to assess the situation and make an arrest decision and also render aid to the child. The world is a crazy and unpredictable place and living in certain places I think justifies having a concealed weapon permit for self defense.

Mobs and the mentality that comes with the mob is dangerous and life threatening, so to me, given that a mob is unpredictable and are capable of killing, it justifies the possibility for the use of deadly force to protect one's self from the mob. One would be a fool not to protect themselves from death via mob. Not to mention, their is no excuse for a mob taking the law into their own hands. I am sure once the mob sees that the person they are targeting is armed, they will think twice before taking matters into their own hands.

If the person ran in the face of the mob, the law would have charged him with leaving the scene of an accident. So the best choice for such a scenario is to have a concealed weapon permit and to carry a firearm concealed until it is necessary to protect one's self from death or great bodily harm. However, if the law permits the person to leave the scene of the accident in such circumstances, then I think deadly force becomes unjustified and in such case even if the person is armed, should leave the scene of the accident without worry of facing criminal charges or escalating the situation and then notify the authorities of what happened and circumstances surrounding why one left the scene of the accident.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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TonyB2009
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Lobowolf, you hit and run, and you are scum. There are no circumstances in which it is okay to hit someone with a vehicle and keep going about your business.

What happened to the man in this case was terrible. But it does not alter the fact that hit and run is wrong in all circumstances.
LobowolfXXX
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On Apr 8, 2014, TonyB2009 wrote:
Lobowolf, you hit and run, and you are scum. There are no circumstances in which it is okay to hit someone with a vehicle and keep going about your business.

What happened to the man in this case was terrible. But it does not alter the fact that hit and run is wrong in all circumstances.


Ok, but why? The accident wasn't the guy's fault, and there were plenty of people around to make sure the kid got medical aid, so why does he have a moral obligation to be there?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
General_Magician
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I don't think the law in this case should require the guy to stay at the scene given that if he does he could potentially be killed by a mob. The law should be more flexible and permit somebody to run without fear of prosecution in cases that meet this specific criteria. Obviously, it's unfortunate that a child was hit and the guy was trying to do the right thing, but as Lobo said, it doesn't appear to be this guy's fault from the article and the mob had no right in taking matters in their own hands and beating him. The guy is lucky to be alive.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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Chrystal
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When the story came out I was sad for the driver and his family. At first, I thought that perhaps it was the man's family that attacked the driver. When I was a Criminology student I remembered hearing about "Automatism Defense".The example given at the time was if a parent and child were crossing the street and the child was killed before their eyes. The parent wracked with grief could attack the driver and claim Automatism as they were unable to control their emotions. However, they could only be allowed one punch or else than it would be assault. I know the law as described sounded silly to me back then as a parent in grief is not going to stop and think I only am allowed one punch.

I looked up the term (as I wasn't sure if my memory was correct) and it claims it's rarely used and in some court cases it's been a defense for those that sleepwalk.

However, in this case news reports that I've read it states the family of the child were informed by his friends and raced to the scene. They claim they did not know the men who attacked the driver. So why did they? I'm not sure and even the authorities claim they don't know why he was targeted. The article did say the man was clinging to life and is suffering from brain injury (another report I read).

So back to your question....did the man have a right to drive away and then report? I don't think he or anyone would have foreseen the danger he was in. I think this was such a strange incident that it probably wouldn't happen again. Those are all my thoughts.
General_Magician
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I don't think he or anyone would have foreseen the danger he was in. I think this was such a strange incident that it probably wouldn't happen again. Those are all my thoughts.


I wasn't surprised by this incident and this type of incident has happened before in other parts of the country (and I am sure in other parts of the world). The law needs to be reformed, otherwise, I feel that the only recourse for somebody who ends up in this situation is lawful use of deadly force to prevent a mob from killing somebody before law enforcement arrives to assess the situation and render any necessary aid. The mob mentality is very dangerous and irrational.

The law should not be punishing somebody for running in the event that they are threatened with death or great bodily harm nor should the law force somebody to choose between death for himself or death for others (having to use deadly force to protect one's self) when he could have simply ran from the mob and prevented more death in the first place. It makes more sense for the law to permit somebody to run in this specific case and report after their is no further danger of death or great bodily harm. The law should not be inflexible in such cases and forcing people to make such serious, life altering choices.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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General_Magician
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It's probably a good idea if somebody chooses to obtain a concealed weapon permit for self defense purposes to also see about getting a liability insurance policy that covers cases where deadly force has to be used to prevent death or great bodily harm. Even if somebody is not held criminally liable for the use of deadly force, he or she could still be potentially held civilly liable, even if deadly force was justified in the eyes of the law from a criminal law stand point. Ideally, it's best to avoid and prevent situations all together in which you could find yourself in a situation where you might have to use a firearm to protect yourself from death or great bodily harm. However, that's not always possible, even for the most careful, responsible person. The NRA recommends such liability insurance policies here: http://www.locktonrisk.com/nrains/defense.htm . Heck, some of these policies might not be enough to cover all the legal costs, but it's better than nothing and it's certainly better to be judged by 12 rather than carried by 6.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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stoneunhinged
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I suppose that most of you don't share my hobby of baseball rules, so no one probably understood what I meant by "train wreck".

This story is, in baseball terms, a train wreck.
tommy
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I think I sort of agree, except, I think, people would take advantage of it and it would it lead to more hit and runs. I think on balance it is best to leave it and keep it simple, that you must stop.
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Marlin1894
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I heard it was a woman with a gun who stopped the beating. I don't know if she actually pulled it, but apparently she shielded the victim and said she was "willing to shoot anybody who hit that man again". The Chief of Police has called her a "Detroit Hero".
Chrystal
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This disagreement is moot in Canada as we don't carry guns but protect ourselves with hockey sticks. If you get 8 or more carrying them , then we start a game.
mastermindreader
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If the guy fled the scene because he was being attacked by a mob, I'd have been happy to defend him on a leaving the scene charge, and am pretty sure that my argument of exigent circumstances would persuade the court to dismiss the charge, if not at trial, then certainly on appeal.
General_Magician
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
If the guy fled the scene because he was being attacked by a mob, I'd have been happy to defend him on a leaving the scene charge, and am pretty sure that my argument of exigent circumstances would persuade the court to dismiss the charge, if not at trial, then certainly on appeal.


I would hope the court would dismiss the charge of leaving a scene of an accident under circumstances like this, but you never know what a court will do. It would be helpful if their was a law that would permit leaving a scene of an accident under exigent circumstances that way their is no uncertainty in what a court would decide because then it would be spelled out and enshrined and law and their would be no surprise decisions by the court to not dismiss such charges under such circumstances.

When I listen to people who have experience working in the courtroom say "if you leave a scene of an accident you are scum" that's not very re-assuring to me that a court would dismiss such charges under exigent circumstances.
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LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
If the guy fled the scene because he was being attacked by a mob, I'd have been happy to defend him on a leaving the scene charge, and am pretty sure that my argument of exigent circumstances would persuade the court to dismiss the charge, if not at trial, then certainly on appeal.


The problem is that if you wait until the mob attacks, it may be too late to flee the scene. See also Denny, Reginald.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
General_Magician
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
If the guy fled the scene because he was being attacked by a mob, I'd have been happy to defend him on a leaving the scene charge, and am pretty sure that my argument of exigent circumstances would persuade the court to dismiss the charge, if not at trial, then certainly on appeal.


The problem is that if you wait until the mob attacks, it may be too late to flee the scene. See also Denny, Reginald.


That's right. You have to follow the law because if you don't you could land in prison or find yourself with a criminal record that will follow you the rest of your life. In such cases, you have to make quick decisions in order to save your own life while staying in compliance with the law and you can't hesitate or become overly concern with liability issues when making those decisions, because if you think too much and hesitate, you are dead.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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General_Magician
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Would you be the type of guy, Landmark, who would freeze up in a situation like that, wanting to ask questions to a mob who has no interest in debating with you or answering your questions? It's not uncommon for people in some circumstances who ask questions first and shoot later end up 6 feet under. Do you think if you said to the mob "hey time out guys, I didn't mean to hit this kid, it was an accident!" Do you think they would just all the sudden decide to listen to reason?

Or would you freeze up and take a beat down that would most likely end your life? Or would you flee the scene of the accident and get criminally charged by an inflexible judicial system and a courtroom that does not always see things through lens of common sense and then end up having a criminal record follow you around the rest of your life? And remember, if you leave the scene of an accident you stand a very good chance of being branded a scum by the courtroom. The people that judge you in the courtroom in many cases do not see nor understand the reality you were facing.
"Never fear shadows. They simply mean there is a light shining somewhere nearby." -unknown

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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, General_Magician wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
If the guy fled the scene because he was being attacked by a mob, I'd have been happy to defend him on a leaving the scene charge, and am pretty sure that my argument of exigent circumstances would persuade the court to dismiss the charge, if not at trial, then certainly on appeal.


I would hope the court would dismiss the charge of leaving a scene of an accident under circumstances like this, but you never know what a court will do. It would be helpful if their was a law that would permit leaving a scene of an accident under exigent circumstances that way their is no uncertainty in what a court would decide because then it would be spelled out and enshrined and law and their would be no surprise decisions by the court to not dismiss such charges under such circumstances.

When I listen to people who have experience working in the courtroom say "if you leave a scene of an accident you are scum" that's not very re-assuring to me that a court would dismiss such charges under exigent circumstances.


Tony said that. To the best of my knowledge he is not a lawyer and doesn't work in a courtroom. No lawyer here said that.

Whether or not circumstances are exigent is a matter that has to be decided on a case by case basis. A law such as you suggest would result in many simply leaving the scene of an accident because they were frightened.

Exigency is determined by the "reasonable man" standard. Whether or not a defendant acted reasonably under the circumstances is a matter for the trier of fact to decide.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 9, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
If the guy fled the scene because he was being attacked by a mob, I'd have been happy to defend him on a leaving the scene charge, and am pretty sure that my argument of exigent circumstances would persuade the court to dismiss the charge, if not at trial, then certainly on appeal.


The problem is that if you wait until the mob attacks, it may be too late to flee the scene. See also Denny, Reginald.


I didn't suggest that he had to actually wait for a physical attack. Whether or not he had a reasonable belief that the mob would attack would simply be a question of fact for the jury (or judge if it was a bench trial, which is likely).

My only point was, that given the facts of the present case, I believe that a charge of leaving the scene would be dismissed.
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