No, there isn't a thread for that. Luckily for us though, it's usually pretty simple to tell when a website is selling knock-offs. Plus, if we have any questions, many creators are members here at the Café if we need them to authenticate an item.

Some people's logic: The original creator sells a product for $200. China makes a knock off for $40. So what if it is cheaper made it still works fine, mostly. The creator is ripping me off by charging so much, therefore I am justified in buying the knock-off. The original creator is greedy and clearly overcharging me by $160.

Problem with this thinking: The knock-off is almost always made more cheaply, maybe it works just fine, but will it work just fine a year from now. Also, the creator spent perhaps 200 hours, maybe a little less, maybe a lot more, developing the product, testing, performing with, refining, etc... The knock-off company spent maybe an hour copying the creator's result. The creator made use of his talent, experience, and other creative abilities. The knock-off company doesn't create they just copy. There is a great investment of time, ability and resources that the creator needs to be reimbursed for. (Its like the old story of the repairman coming to fix some piece of equipment. He taps it with a hammer and it starts to work again, he gives you a bill for $210. You complain, "$210 for tapping something with a hammer!!". "No," he responds, " $10 for tapping with the hammer and $200 for knowing where to tap.")

That knowledge, experience and ability is valuable. That is why some people can create and others can only copy. I could spend a year writing a book, but you could copy it in an hour. You could sell your copies very cheaply because you have far less time and absolutely no talent and ability invested in it. People spend years learning, educating, and refining their skills and abilities. How dare people feel that they are justified in purchasing a knock-off of someone else's product; that it is okay for the creator to not be rewarded for their effort, but instead to reward someone else who stole their work. Justify it if you want; the jails are full of people who justified their actions.

How much creative magic are we missing out on because people find creating and selling magic to not provide enough profit to justify the many hours in developing and producing a product. You might think you are not hurting anyone else by supporting knock-off magic products, but smart people realize the damage being done, and what the entire magic community misses out on as a result. That is why so many people get upset over this issue. That plus the fact that it is tiring to listen to someone justify unethical behavior.

Hey! I don't have a change bag! --And, further, I don't plan to get one!

Exactly why I stopped in 2003! I had more than ten folders of designs and ideas (all lost in the foreclosure) I had been compiling since the 70's. I became aware of this issue, and decided it was not worth it.

Doug

Hi everybody,

I don't know if it will help to convince the OP not to buy ripp-offs or knock-offs, but I'll give it a try. The hope is to live !

Made in China doesn't mean that everything made in China is crap. As a few people told already, you can get some very well made original or public domain products made in China, even in magic.

BUT, and there is a BUT, when it comes to specific props, like stage illusions, you just need to have a look at the pictures of those companies that sell stage illusions ( http://www.cn-magic.net/english/pt.asp?l......=&page=2 ) . Those pictures will tell you that those products are knock- or ripp-offs.

Just ask yourself those questions :

Do you think that those props look like real deceptive props ? NO !!!

Do you think that the people watching a show using those props will feel "fooled" in a magical and entertaining way ? NO !!!

And does the price looks fair enough in your eyes for such large props ? NO !!!


There are a few easy ways to find out about the original inventor of an illusion, like the listing on www.magicauction.com .

I think that there's no excuse by saying, "I'm new, I don't know so that's why I took the cheapest which might not be an original, but I don't care !"

The first things that new magicians learn by entering the magic world are the rules, specially the secret and ethic rules. So no excuse to this. If someone doesn't know, he or she should always ask and expert in this field first through their Magic Circle or Club or an specialized internet forum, like The Magic Café. If more then ONE person tells some one that a prop is a knock- or ripp-off you can be 100% sure, it is !

Concerning the value of those props, specially stage illusions :

I like the statement of wwhokie1. So much time goes into creating a new effect, so much money in building mock-ups, test props, rehearsal props until the final product is finished and polished, ready to sell. Those people who sell those original props have the professional customers in mind and want them to get only the best prop, time tested under all conditions that will last for years. Quality has its price !!! So you pay the material, the building time, the inventor (royalties) who created the new effect etc...

Do you think that $ 1.500,- (Fire Spiker Illusion in China) or $ 2.200,- (Origami Illusion in China) pay the dues to all those people? NO, I DON'T THINK SO !!! And by the way, the real creators and inventors of those illusions won't get their due from thoses companies in China.

This also applies to other props, like smaller stage props or hand made props of original creators like those that other Café Members have mentioned above.

Another thing, China isn't the only country concerned by a big knock-off market. Some countries in Europe (Germany, France, Italy and Spain...) are aswell.

I know, I might have wasted (again !!!) my time to convince newbies or people looking for a real bargain, like so many other people here on the Café. Sometimes the real bargain doesn't lies in the price of a prop, but in the quality it is made, in the deception and so the entertainment value it brings to an audience and in the time it will last.

To finish with a bit of humor : Tomorrow I'll market the Toyota Yaris for only $ 1.500,- , brand new with all options, never used, quality build in the south of France. Would you trust me and buy it from me, even though you've never heard of me before? NO !!! I DON'T THINK SO !!!

:rotf:

But of course this is, as always, my sole and personal opinion.


Oliver.

I don't know where you get your ideas from, ihave, but you have unfairly slandered American workers with a vicious lie:

"Americans are a bunch of lazy layabouts who don't want to work and would rather live off the taxes generated by the toil of their countrymen. I hear some version of this rant repeatedly from people who believe that the American work ethic disappeared at some point in the past generation.

"First, American worker productivity is high and continues to rise.

"In fact, according to a cross-national study released earlier this year by the International Labor Organization, American workers are the most productive in the world. Based on the most recent data available for each country, workers in the United States on average produce $63,885 of wealth annually; compared to other industrialized countries of Europe, only Norway's workers produce more wealth per hour ($37.99 in U.S. dollars) than do American workers ($35.63.)

"Second, Americans work a lot.

"Although workers in third-world countries put in roughly 2,200 hours per year, compared with other industrialized nations U.S. workers rank first, averaging about 1,800 hours annually. That's 400 more hours than the Norwegians and 330 more hours than the French.

"So we work plenty and produce a lot. How else could a nation with only 4.5 percent of the world's population produce more than a fifth of the world's wealth?"

~ http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-08......-workers

I believe that almost all the magic supplies that I actually use were manufactured in the US.

The more business we give to magic dealers the more likely they will be able to give better deals, simple economics it's all demand and supply. But we should also buy from them to support their employees, because no one wants to lose their job.

"You get what you pay for" is obviously well known and applies here, but what about "you pay for what you get"? If you want somebody to put the hard work and time into new effects that they're happy to release, then you've got to be happy to pay the price for said effect, and not try to get it on the cheap.