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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » Ukraine v Russia (3 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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It seems that things are coming to a boiling point now. It looks about evens to me on the Russians invading again today.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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It is looking inevitable isn't it.

Tsar Vladimir I.
tommy
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I guess it depends on how many Russians die in the battles to retake the police stations and so on.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2014, Destiny wrote:
It is looking inevitable isn't it.

Tsar Vladimir I.

Not as simple as that IMO.
tommy
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The Russian protesters are now under siege at Gestapo HQ by the NAZI's who staged a military coup in Kiev according to the Russians, who have sent Kiev a final demand to pay the gas bill.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

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landmark
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A perspective different from the MSM:

http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/04/11/u......alities/
Destiny
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I admit to simplifying immensely Landmark, but what do you think of the situation?

It does appear from the little I know of Russian history that the people themselves seem sympathetic to authoritarian rule, and approve of an expansionary Russia. I know it's not all that PC to attribute characteristics to a nation of people as a whole, but I've just never noticed a real yearning for democracy in Russians in general - which recent politician do they dislike the most? Gorbachev - the guy that gave them democracy and gave away their territorial conquests.

I read an article a few days ago about when Putin first took over - he threw out the painting of Lenin in his Kremlin office and sent the help to find a painting of Peter the Great to replace it.
Destiny
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Interesting article and no doubt some truth in it but the author starts off badly by trying to portray Yanukovych in a good light which is a bit hard to accept after the poisoning of Yushchenko years ago and then the treatment of the politician with the peasant braids (can't remember her name) more recently. He started out as the puppet for a dictator (Kuchma) and seems to have finished his career as puppet for another (Putin).

I'm also never convinced by all that 'nostalgia for the good old days of dictatorship' nonsense that gets trotted out a few years down the track after every revolution - life is uncertain and is that way in a democracy or dictatorship - there may have been certainty in some areas for some of the time under Stalin for example, but then again if he suddenly got ****** off with one region, the entire populace might suddenly find themselves shipped off to Chechnya or Siberia.

Finally the author seems to think the US is still fighting the Cold War with the USSR - while I've got no doubt the US wants to be the primary, if not sole, arbiter of influence on the planet, I suspect it's focus on the USSR has lessened quite a bit since the USSR ceased to exist, along with the politburo. The US has for a century judged most other authoritarian regimes less harshly than communist ones.
tommy
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I know an ex KGB General, he is very much like Dudley More, in character and looks. I don't think he likes authority much, as he killed a couple of KGB Generals.

As for Gorbachev, say no more. http://www.gcint.org/news/gorbachev%E2%8......lub-rome


Putin serves the same corrupt ruling Club of Rome/ oligarchy that Obama serves.

An interesting article indicating that Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin wants to build a Eurasian economic union. This is exactly the scenario proposed years ago by the Club of Rome in its subdivision of the world into 10 economic units. If you follow the link below, (Club of Rome), you will be taken to a map that shows these 10 economic regions with Russia, the former Soviet states and parts of Asia all comprising this proposed union, (region 5 on the map).

http://signpostsofthetimes.blogspot.co.u......mic.html


I like a lot authority myself. Ever since I was a kid I always wanted to be a boss.
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Hard as I try, I can't imagine Dudley Moore killing KGB generals, but I can imagine him participating in the Club of Rome, along with the Two Ronnies and Steptoe Senior. I can't decide if Peter Sellers should be in charge, or maybe get a bit modern and put Jo Brand in control.
tommy
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Shall we further agree?
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landmark
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I agree that the article is over the top in its praise for Yanukovych. I don't believe however that Putin is expansionist. I think he is very rational--but like the leader of any world power he does not relish the idea of having a strong opposing force on one of his country's borders. As an example, if Mexico or Canada were to become strongly anti-US, I think you'd see immediate action taken by the US to reverse that as well. That doesn't mean the US would necessarily want to take over Canada with all the attendant headaches.

The important thing about the situation is that basically, the US provoked a change in the status quo by supporting the right wing extremist nationalists in the Ukraine. This was the breaking of a deal that had been made when the Soviet Union fell, and the new borders of the constituent countries were being hammered out. The agreement was for a separate Ukraine, but understandably with no NATO interference as a threat to the border of Russia. By breaking this agreement the US, the US predictably provoked the Russian leadership. There was really very little else Putin could do but respond with a strong message that they weren't going to allow an enemy regime on their border. This is not a matter of right or wrong; it is just a matter of common sense.

When two mafia families make a deal about their territory, we should not be surprised if one family responds if the other one horns in on their territory. That said, I think Putin has shown remarkable restraint, and the US remarkable hypocrisy. When Yanukovych was overthrown in a military coup by fascists, the US said nothing. When Putin forces an election in Crimea--which unlike the Ukraine is genuinely majority pro-Russian--the Russians are denounced severely by the US.

Up to now, the US feels that the provocation of Putin has not cost them anything and will continue to do so as long as they see it that way. There are signs however, that they realize that Putin's role in the world market cannot be disentangled so easily, and that in the end the fascist government in the Ukraine will not serve the Western agenda either. The nature of the internationality of world resources makes it difficult to betray Putin completely--he still holds many cards, and what I think we'll see in weeks to come, is bluster from US officials in their public pronouncements, but backing off privately.
tommy
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Two Mafia families eh

More like Tweedledum and Tweedledee Agreed to have a battle!
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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Unfortunately, unlike with Tweedledum and Tweedledee, masses of other innocent people have to give up their own lives when the clowns play.
tomsk192
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Ukraine vs. Russia?

Russia.

Despite the slightly muted outrage from my country and others', it seems that Russia will nick most, if not all of Ukraine.

Viva Putin: that weak, arrogant ****.

What this shows in painful relief is that Europe, my location, is a *****.
Destiny
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Landmark,

That makes a lot of sense - best explanation I've seen.
tomsk192
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Destiny, what do you think of Putin?
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I don't like dictators of any stripe.

Putin is one nasty bit of work.
Chessmann
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Quote:
On Apr 13, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:

What this shows in painful relief is that Europe, my location, is a *****.



Image


"Speak for yourself, sir!"
My ex-cat was named "Muffin". "Vomit" would be a better name for her. AKA "The Evil Ball of Fur".
tommy
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Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee are not unlike but alike. Still, they have to settle their differences somehow don't they?

Some say, compar'd to Bononcini
That Mynheer Handel's but a Ninny
Others aver, that he to Handel
Is scarcely fit to hold a Candle
Strange all this Difference should be
'Twixt Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-dee!

- John Byrom. Or so some say anyway.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
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