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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! » » Real occultism in magic (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

orchid666
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u.k
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Greetings dark brothers!
Nothing but curiousity makes me start this thread, so I'm keen to hear your views.
Obviously it will depend on your belief system, but what are your feelings when you or a creator uses genuine magickal symbols/talismans for an effect?
For instance a Goetic seal as either decoration, or as an actual object used in a routine.
I won't be naive in thinking that, as I was, some of you were drawn to the bizzare by already having an interest in the ceremonial/ritual study or practise, or vise versa, so what do you think about these very powerful symbols being used in what is essentially 'entertainment'? Does it even cross your mind?
Is a talisman useless when not annointed, or used in the right circumstance, or does it hold at least something? I use the the thelemic unicursal hexagram as a big part of my own, ahem, late night interests, so personally wouldn't use it for another reason.
The late dr Christopher Hyatt published his experience of a pact working, where a demonic prince of the Goetia demanded ' publicity and exposure' in return for the operators wishes. A successful marketed effect would certainly get his name out there to a lot of new people!!
So, a harmless and mysterious addition to a routine, or powerful distribution of dark forces onto an unsuspecting public??!!!
Shemhamforash!!
Kneill X
Brynmore14
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Well to continue your use of language, I tend to be more Lavey than Aquino, so to me these symbols have a psychological effect but that is their limit. As such I'm not overly concerned when using these symbols, as I'm using them to induce the aforementioned psychological effect. But I am aware that others will perceive it differently and we must be prepared to deal with this fact.
YitzhakNoDice
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Does it cross my mind that ritual objects or symbols are used in what is essentially entertainment?

Absolutely and frequently.

I shall hitherto refer to a ritual object or symbol is 'it'.

There are three aspects I think about: how I personally feel about using an 'it', how my specs personally feel and react to 'it', and how 'it' might change the perspective of my specs regarding my (character's) reputation or that of any Jew, i.e., <i>Marit haAyin</i>. I could <i>hoka chainik</i> (prattle on endlessly) about how I personally feel about utilising an 'it' in entertainment. Regarding the specs, it is probably a topic for an entire thread. Here, I think its more relevant to discuss the Marit haAyin aspect – maintaining appearances and being consistent, if you will. Certainly, how I personally feel is influenced by the Marit haAyin aspect.

Here are some thoughts to ponder:

Is there consistency of 'it' within one's character?
Are you using 'it' with actual intent (are you approaching your performance as real)?
How familiar are your specs with the culture of your character and 'it'?
Is 'it' potentially sacrilegious?


The answer to the first question is fairly easy to answer. Brandishing a cross and sprinkling holy water, for instance, is not consistent with my character. Are there grey areas which you need to justify (to your specs)? If there is need for very much justification, I'll go find another 'it'. I love doing research on possible 'it's – perhaps too much research – so for me, its easy to see if 'it' is consistent with my character.

There has been discussion on the second question in spooky and down below. Thanks to that, I've been altering my idea of what performance is. I'm beginning to approach what I do as real – with actual and honest intent. Yes, the results I get are boosted with help from AM, OE, GE, etc.; but the concept performance for me is increasingly taking on an aspect of Ritual (that's ritual with a capitol R). Do I consider 'preforming' a Passover Seder a Ritual? Of course, yes. So, I can apply Ritual to storytelling magic? Partly (I'm working it).

Concerning the third question, do the specs need background information? Are they going to faint in shock when you show them 'it'? I frequently need to explain my background and what 'it' is. That is both an advantage and a disadvantage – unfamiliarity allows some bending of the explanation of 'it'. As you can tell, I'm taking about tailoring the performance to the audience.

The last question is hard to answer, I think. From my rather narrow Jewish perspective, there are two categories of what 'it' is in regards to be “sacred”: <i>Kedushah</i> (Hebrew for holy, sacred, set apart) and <i>Tahor</i> (ritually pure). There are objects, people, thoughts, acts, places, and times (and 'its') that can be either Kedushah or Tahor or both (sorry to butcher the proper use conjugation of the Hebrew for simplicity's sake). Let's consider one relevant (and my favourite) example: sacred letters arrangements. The most notable sacred letter arrangement example, of course, is the Tetragrammaton and its permutations. Brandishing this is serious Third Commandment Tinkering (TCT). Oy! I would never do it! I subtly alter any Tetragrammaton(s) I use for performance to avoid any wrath (trouble, indignation, and messengers of evil) and any concerns a knowledgeable person might have. Sometimes I'll point this out beforehand and explain the habit we have of substituting “The Name” in place of The Name (oh, see I just did it!) to avoid TCT. The point is, there are subtle ways of making 'it' not sacrilegious by handling and (or) its creation. But, beware!

In another thread, I recently introduced my Jewish Exorcism Kit (JEK). A couple of items in my JEK fall into the category of Kedushah and a couple are Tahor. All the JEK objects (except one that I think you can identify!) are real – I use them in a religious context. The only way I can use them in an entertainment way and not be sacrilegious is to do a real ritual with true intent. It would be dishonest to use trickery to get (the desired) result. I could create facsimiles of these objects, but what of Marit haAyin? So there's the sticky point. That is why my answer is “Absolutely and frequently”.
A wise man's question contains half the answer. - Solomon ben Judah, Philosopher
Brynmore14
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The sacrilege aspect is one I need to ponder more. I think I have underestimated the potential to cause offense in this regard due to my own beliefs which are more material in nature. Anthony Black's new release Confession seems like it would need to be handled with sensitivity to avoid offense. So this discussion seems particularly timely. Thanks Yitzhak and Kneill for getting me thinking about ethics in this regard. I guess for us as Mystery Performers, considering the range of topics we cover, we have the potential of offending most of the world's people. This is possibly our equivalent to the mentalist's disclaimer discussion Smile
Brynmore14
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Yitzhak,

I pm'ed you.
Michael_MacDonald
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I have come to a point in my life where I wish only to create real magic. I do not do tricks any more. each of these talismans are essential in my performances now. my goal is less to entertain and more to make a connection with my sitters. I want to create a real connection where I can give them a gift that goes way beyond the see what I can do mentality.

just me though I guess
Tony Iacoviello
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Michael, not just you.
Brynmore14
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Depending on how we define the terms trick and real magic, the two are not neccessarily mutually exclusive. To me Peter Turner and Atlas Brooks create real magical experiences that people will remember for a lifetime, that still use the standard methodologies of mentalism (ie trickery / deception).

Then there are grey areas between outright trickery and real magic such as muscle reading, cold reading, etc.

So the smart thing for me to do at this juncture is ask you to clarify and elaborate upon your previous comments Michael and Tony.
Eddie Garland
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“Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid.”
reese
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Have you noticed? Read the fine print... Steve Brooks owns anything we post here. Why would I reply?
13
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If the ancients used symbolism and superstition to control the punters, then I can too.

p.s. my post aint worth a plug nickle.
13
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