The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » HELP / ADVICE WANTED (5 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
Heka Siosiri
View Profile
Regular user
158 Posts

Profile of Heka Siosiri
Quote:
On May 23, 2014, kinesis wrote:
I'm holding tight. I have been assured they will get back to me as soon a possible. They sure won't find anyone else to take this one on.


Right. Stick with it, they'll call you. If needed reduce the fee max of 5% after a review of the package you're giving them. Which is what they want
mindpunisher
View Profile
Inner circle
6132 Posts

Profile of mindpunisher
Quote:
On May 23, 2014, C.J. wrote:
Call me old-fashioned, but I wouldn't think the "dump and run" is going to be particularly good for your reputation if they are as big as you say. No news is good news, as they say. Maybe they will come through. If they don't, let them dump you, not the other way around. It's Dale Carnegie 101.


Its not dump and run it called terms and conditions. Or in simple terms BOUNDARIES. If you don't have them you will get all walked over and treated as a doormat. Plus you will get a reputation for that so will attract more of it. And when they have a good budget they will go to someone who has set those boundaries up because you will be perceived as someone who works cheap and can be messed about. Someone to go to when you don't have a decent budget.

Just because a company is big doesn't mean they are good clients or good payers. Often the opposite is true.

Always have boundaries and a walk away point. As Kenisis said they won't get anyone else. Do you really want to be the guy that will take anything? that's not a good reputation to have.
C.J.
View Profile
Inner circle
There's a lotta rambling in my
2366 Posts

Profile of C.J.
Yes, but there's a difference in HOW you walk away. The earlier suggestions of dropping the client sounded very aggressive. We get the benefit of choosing our customers, but that doesn't mean we "stick it to them" if they are difficult or not aware of how hard our job is. We can decline an offer, or say, "I'm afraid we're unable to agree on terms", but that attitude is different to "They are the clients from hell. I would have dumped them by now".
Connor Jacobs - The Thought Sculptor
Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur
Be fondly remembered.
mindpunisher
View Profile
Inner circle
6132 Posts

Profile of mindpunisher
Clients from hell is not an attitude its a category of client. You get good clients bad clients and clients from hell very bad clients who just drain you and are bad payers.

It doesn't matter how you dump them "I'm afraid we're unable to agree on terms" or better still give then your terms and conditions up front so they don't waste your time which is probably the best.

Its still dumping them no matter how you phrase it.

Clients from hell are a reality not an attitude.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
I don't go over each routine I do with clients and let them tell me how to present anything. Nor do I dicker over fees. This sounds like a situation where you're going to end up on the short end of the stick no matter how things turn out.

Since your fee was apparently made clear right up front, the fact that they're now questioning it should tell you something about them.

I'd tell them to find someone else whose show they'd like to write for them.

I mean, do you tell them how to dig oil wells?
kinesis
View Profile
Inner circle
Scotland, surrounded by
2701 Posts

Profile of kinesis
Thanks Bob.

The client wanted to present very specific safety rules in an entertaining way. The show is to be entertaining, educational and informative. During a telecom I was asked to describe each effect as it would appear to the audience. This allowed the client to see that each safety aspect had been covered appropriately. At no point did they attempt to tell me my job. They were more than happy with the outline I proposed.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






FACEBOOK
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
That mitigates it a bit, I guess. But I was under the impression that you told them what your fee would be BEFORE doing the telecoms with them going over the effects. In other words, you already began working on the contract. And NOW they want to reduce the fee.

IMO that would be a breach of contract on their part because you've already partially performed your end of the deal by participating in the telecoms and preparing a customized show.

I'm just looking out for you, Derek. I don't like to see fellow performers getting screwed.
kinesis
View Profile
Inner circle
Scotland, surrounded by
2701 Posts

Profile of kinesis
Yes, you are totally right, Bob. And thank you.
I've suspended all work on this until I know it's going ahead. It's a pain in the rear though as some of the script I need to learn has some very precise wording that has to be delivered word for word. Time is ticking away.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






FACEBOOK
mindpunisher
View Profile
Inner circle
6132 Posts

Profile of mindpunisher
You are an Entertainer not a safety officer. If they want to present safety then they should do that before you go on to entertain. They aren't entertainers. Your show and what effects you perform is up to you. You can't win here.

Listen to Bob I would dump them.

They keep changing the goal posts. The minute someone questions my fee I always dump them. No exceptions. And I have done it a few times. I don't argue I just walk away. I don't want them as clients by that point neither should you!
kinesis
View Profile
Inner circle
Scotland, surrounded by
2701 Posts

Profile of kinesis
The Keynote speaker IS on before me. I believe they also have some kind of drama/theatrical type presentation too. I hear what you're saying MP, it's the weekend, am gonna see what Monday/Tuesday brings (bank holiday Monday I think).
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






FACEBOOK
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
I wonder if they're directing the theater group and writing the speech for the Keynote speaker. If so, your biggest problem might be staying awake until it's time for you to go on. And then waking the audience up when you get out there. Smile
saysold1
View Profile
Eternal Order
Recovering Cafe addict with only
10630 Posts

Profile of saysold1
Quote:
On May 23, 2014, kinesis wrote:
So they had my fee right from the start. We discussed the topics for the effects. Not easy. During a very long telecom we discussed the individual routines and how they met the topic criteria. We discussed lighting, stage set, audience layout. We agreed I'd write my show intro. I was to email the client the routine outline, intro and fee. Within 24hrs the project manager was challenging my fee for 2 x 30 minute spots. I explained that I understand that on paper it does appear a lot. However it's not just 2 x 30 minutes. There's a 5 hour round trip to Aberdeen and back. I will be at the event potentially from 12 noon til 4pm. This adds up to a 9 hour day. There has been a substantial number of hours taken to create what are essentially bespoke routines specific to this event. I still need many hours to script and rehearse the full routine in time for the event. Three days later and still no decision has been made. This is a global company within the oil industry worth around $180 000 Million. Now it's the weekend, still waiting - I'm just a tad pi$$ed off.


I don't like the way this sounds.

Boundaries are important in sales - and in relationships. So far they keep asking you to do this or that.. add this or that - then to question the fee?

The only way to show your in control is to tell them that the deal is off and to locate another entertainer.

In sales one of the most powerful things you can do is cut a problematic client.

So far they have seen what they perhaps perceive as pliability on your part - hence the attempt to renege on the fee or see if there is softness. As others have said - bad omen.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of premium, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
saysold1
View Profile
Eternal Order
Recovering Cafe addict with only
10630 Posts

Profile of saysold1
Quote:
On May 24, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I wonder if they're directing the theater group and writing the speech for the Keynote speaker. If so, your biggest problem might be staying awake until it's time for you to go on. And then waking the audience up when you get out there. Smile


Bob brings up another good pint here too - maybe you should have a greater say in when you come on in terms of the order.

I made that mistake recently and allowed the organizers to schedule me at a stated 9:45PM time, after dinner, and after dessert... after the 300+ attendees had just competed in 12+ hours of a Karate competition!

They ended starting me at 10:45PM.

Needless to say, this was not a high energy audience.

It was my fault 100% - before the event I should have strongly recommended that they put me on before dinner, or immediately after. ON show night once we went past 10:30PM for start time, I should have then said that the show would run 30 min rather than an hour.

Live and learn. But as performers in many cases we know better than the client as to when we should be scheduled and what makes sense.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of premium, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
And, in most cases, they KNOW that we know better and would probably have listened if we explained things clearly right up front.

When a show is great, you'll get the credit for sure. But if it's less than optimal, it going to be seen as your failure, not theirs.
Scott Soloff
View Profile
Special user
Philadelphia, PA
960 Posts

Profile of Scott Soloff
You already have plenty of good advice here from working pros. With that said, I'm going to add my two cents, for what's worth.

1/ I never justify my fee. My fee is my fee; you can get it done well or get it done cheap but you can't have it both ways.

2/ I always get a deposit (non-refundable) and make it clear that I get the balance when I show up. Not After The Show! If they bother to ask why (some do, some don't), I politely tell them that I don't like to chase money.

3/ My dear departed father taught me that one of the most valuable lessons in business is knowing when to cut your losses. This situation, from what you have shared here sounds untenable to me.

Obviously, this is something that you have to decide for yourself.

Whatever you decide, I genuinely hope that it works out well and wish you the best.

Scott
'Curiouser and curiouser."
kinesis
View Profile
Inner circle
Scotland, surrounded by
2701 Posts

Profile of kinesis
I will decide on Tuesday what my course of action is going to be. Thank you all for the advice, I'll let you know.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






FACEBOOK
Rolyan
View Profile
Special user
I'm fencing in my land; so far there are
584 Posts

Profile of Rolyan
It will be interesting to hear the outcome.

For what it's worth, I've never justified my fee and I've never reduced it. I've only ever lost one show, to a booker who said "I can get a group (music) for that". So I told him to book the group.

If it was me I would simply state that they have my fee and I would need an answer by (enter date). Good luck and I hope you get the outcome you want.
MrThomas
View Profile
Regular user
Magdeburg
120 Posts

Profile of MrThomas
Quote:
On May 15, 2014, Medifro wrote:
For tricks, the presentation and narrative is obviously up to you, though you can consider this:
[...]
Mental Blindspots: Predictions. Also applies for distractions.
Alcohol or drug abuse: Dual reality based effects as hallucinations.


Referring to mental blindspots and distortion of perception (hallucination), 'The 100th Monkey' might be an interesting idea/concept to use on this subject. You can find a link to a performance in another thread here in Penny. http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......orum=15)
kinesis
View Profile
Inner circle
Scotland, surrounded by
2701 Posts

Profile of kinesis
Well, I sent them an ultimatum. Make a decision today or I'm out. Despite the manager being 'Out of Office' the team leader has replied that we should go with the original plan. So far so good, but don't hold your breath...watch this space.
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






FACEBOOK
kinesis
View Profile
Inner circle
Scotland, surrounded by
2701 Posts

Profile of kinesis
Just a wee update
It's all good and it's all go. It's all signed and sealed. I have a mad frantic weekend ahead scripting and rehearsing. I put this on hold while it was sorted out. Fortunately I have a completely free weekend, so the phone's off the hook, the door's getting locked and no TV or internet - FOCUS!!! Also a wee thanks to Dusty here on The Café who shared some excellent advice over the phone just the other day - thanks mate.

Happy days Smile
Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one - Albert Einstein






FACEBOOK
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » HELP / ADVICE WANTED (5 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.28 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL