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Bill Palmer
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I believe you are reading things into both my text and his quotes that are not there. I strongly suggest that you read the Hocus Pocus Junior routine before you take me to task for calling the routine in Scot "cryptic," and implying that he has a "complete" routine. He doesn't.

He has the bare skeleton of a description of moves used in a routine.

I should point out that I don't need anyone else to translate this style of English for me. I have been reading it for more than 40 years. I understand it better than I understand the lyrics to most hip-hop "music."

I also understand it in the context of the social climate. I realize that to "abuse mens eies and judgements" means to fool them. However, it also means to deceive them. And deception was not necessarily a good thing in the eyes of the Church and the eyes of the law.

Scot was basically saying in this passage, "These fellows are not practicing witchcraft. They are simply performing sleight of hand to fool you. They aren't hurting anyone." But that isn't necessarily "the betterment of society."
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
pasteboardjones
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Last time, because I'm just repeating myself now.

1. Not ONLY did he write that they were not hurting anyone, he also ADDS that they should be COMMENDED.
That is a positive statement, one I see you ignore.
Saying that fooling someone was not neccessarily a good thing makes no sense, especially as the author meant it as a good thing, and as a defense of the performers.

2. I took the betterment of society quote from Neil Alexander as I demonstrated. And if you don't think that entertainment, specifically magic, is to the betterment of society,
especially when contrasted with the idea of the hypothetically criminal magician,
then we disagree about something else evidently.

3. I don't believe I have read anything into your comments that was not there. Care to clarify?
Nor do I believe that I stated anything that was not supported by quotes from the material. Correct me?

4.Read the defintion of cryptic if you care to.
It does not apply here. Nor does it seem that Scot was even attempting to be.
And I didn't even say that he presented a complete routine.
(Even though he does provide enough.)
What I said was that there was enough description to be able to recognize, without any difficulty,
what we now call the cups and balls.

The original point of all of this, was that I wondered about the lack of negative commentary in the Discoverie Of Witchcraft book, if all cups and balls workers were criminal.
Even if you have refused to admit that the book has a positive view of performers (I still don't know why), you at least have admitted that they were not
"hurting anyone," which was my initial contention.

Hope I'm not offending you here;
it's just when someone wishes to tell me that I am mistaken, I expect a sensible debate about it.
Bill Palmer
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In your previous quote, you say "that is an exact description of a cups and balls routine used today."

Now you say that it isn't. Make up your mind.

Scot's word, by the way is "commendable." That means, that it is possible to commend it, not necessarily that it is mandatory to do so.

You obviously don't have the book, because you consistently misspelled the words as he wrote them.

For example, where Scot writes "onlie," you write "onlic." This indicates to me that you are looking at it only on the computer screen, where the resolution is not good enough to read the text correctly, and you are picking and choosing your sections.

I suggest that you read Booke XIII, chapter XII, in addition to the part you are quoting here.

I shall not further comment on this.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
pasteboardjones
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As I said before, it is enough information to recognize it as the cups and balls, not a complete routine, but a DESCRIPTION of one that is recognizable as such, including the feautures I listed already.
I did not say it WAS a routine.

I am reading it online; that has nothing to do with my point.
Trying to use that as a point of argument is questionable at best, and shows you have nothing to add here.

My use of commended was not a quote, but a review of what I had already quoted.

Which by the way, if you are still unclear of the meaning and POSITIVE note of the word

commendable
-To represent as worthy, qualified, or desirable; recommend.
-To express approval of; praise.
-To commit to the care of another; entrust.

How clear do you need it?
Bill Palmer
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It's perfectly clear. It is clear that you don't even understand the parts of speech. You are giving definitions for "to commend" not "commendable."

My suggestion -- get a real dictionary.

I recommend that you purchase one of the following:
1)The Compact Edition of the Oxford English Dictionary (my favorite)
2)Webster's New International Dictionary second unabridged edition
3)Wester's Third New International Dictionary(unabridged)

These are the ones real writers use.
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
pasteboardjones
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It is assumed that the reader can extrapolate the adjective.
That was verbatum from a dictionary.
I'm pretty sure it's not one of those fake ones that hip hop musicians use.
What a joke.
Diverting arguments off on irrelevant tangents all over the place does not make one correct.

At least you have progressed from claiming that Scot meant that the magicians performances weren't "hurting anybody,"
to it being at least "possible to commend it."
Shows you are slightly flexible.
Bill Palmer
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I believe that's "verbatim."
"The Swatter"

Founder of CODBAMMC

My Chickasaw name is "Throws Money at Cups."

www.cupsandballsmuseum.com
pasteboardjones
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You did it again Bill!

*******

A. Does the Discoverie of Witchcraft have a clear reference to the cups and balls?
You have only admitted this in a roundabout way, but the answer is obviously yes.

B.Does Scot refer negatively to the performers?
As you have indicated, no. And that it is even "possible" to commend them.

That is it.
That was all this was about.
Not my poor grammar, which I never made any claim to greatness about anyway.
But kudos to you for takng so many posts to just simply acknowledge what is written plainly.
I guess 40 years of study does make a difference.
Police Magician
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Bill, I agree that most people get conned because of wanting something for nothing and having larceny in their heart. I am sure you have heard of the old quote "You can't cheat an honest man." There are even some cons that will cheat an honest person, such as the Bank Examiner and Badge Play Comeback. Both these cons do not use money as the catch. It uses civic duty or wanting to catch the perp. The Badge Play Comeback is mainly used on victims of the Pigeon Drop scam. Con artists sell the names of victims to other con artists who pose as law enforcement and rip the victims off of more money. Horrible scenario. Thanks for your input. Glenn
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Pocket_Picker04
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I myself must say I am both I do magic for those who want to be entertained but every once in a while you get the knuckle head who wants to try and ruin it for everybody. So I hustle them. Dice isn't my thing neither is the shell game. No, No all I need is a pack of cards sometimes a hustler can be an audiences best friend, think about it some guy is trying to bust your illusions and so you make a friendly wager and he loses and you make a small poke at his pride so he goes in again and again until finally he is a broke and broken man who leaves you alone.
if i show you a card trick will you really miss your wallet?
Police Magician
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Your post reminds me of the time I was attending a seminar on con games in Illinois. Several of us were in a lounge and I was demonstrating three card monte and shell and pea.

One person, who was not part of our group, thought he could beat me. I had another cop mark down how much money would be lost. In less than 15 minutes he would have owed me almost 2 thousand dollars.

This served as a lesson to him that you cannot beat a man at his own game. I have not had trouble makers like that, but while instructing a seminar for cops on con games, using Bunco Bucks, I took several who tried the same thing. It was a humbling experience for them all.

Glenn
Glenn Hester

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M Pitcher
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JackDaniel
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Still an interesting topic...
Guys! do you gave suggestions on other Cons, other than the shell game, Cups'n balls or 3card monte?
Still with a magical context to it?
Jack.
Visit the magic of Vegas and your life will change forever..
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-08-05 07:49, JackDaniel wrote:
Still an interesting topic...
Guys! do you gave suggestions on other Cons, other than the shell game, Cups'n balls or 3card monte?
Still with a magical context to it?
Jack.
One instantly springs to mind..
*Fast and loose*..*the endless chain*, whatever it is called..
Magical context too, one can *remove* a *knot* from it (by an extra piece of chain)..aso.
Ken Brooke did it..lots of others still do it.. can't right now recall *who*, but they exist..amongst others it is on the Johnny Thompson videos/DVDs..
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
suspectacts
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History aside, I can't help but be drawn by the irony of Jack's original post.

Folks, he's posting from Nevada !

Why is it a 'hustle' when you lose to a guy on the streets, but 'gaming' when you lose to a guy in a polyester vest behind a blackjack table?

Jack, your guests didn't get 'cheated'. They played a game they thought they could win, and lost. They are just mad about it because on the streets they expect they were smarter than the hustler.

What's amazing to me is that people don't complain about the casinos where the games are openly slanted for 'the house' to win. Blackjack, slots, craps. Those are the real sucker bets.

I love to watch NYC monte crews work and I never lose anything, because I recognize that these guys are sharps and I, even with all my magic training, is a ripe as any other rube.
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2004-01-15 17:35, whithaydn wrote:
Someone once said, "Beggars are impossible! If you give them money you feel guilty and if you don't give them any money you feel guilty!"


I've never felt guilty giving money to a begger if I had it to spare. If I didn't have any to spare, I didn't feel guilty about not giving what I didn't have!

Posted: Aug 5, 2004 8:46am

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 2004-01-16 18:36, JamesinLA wrote:
I wonder if conning people was part of the original use of the cups and balls way back when?!! Does anyone know anything about that?

Jim


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I think it's been suggested that it was the other way around, the shell game was developed after the trick. (Although, some people have suggested that cups and balls was originally a shill to get people to gather up close so the "magicians" partner could start picking pockets. I don't know how true that is.)
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Werner G. Seitz
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Quote:
On 2004-01-29 11:10, whithaydn wrote:
....Yes. It is my belief, and that of Ron Wohl, a very fine student of the shell game, ....

Just a note, not of interest to most..

Dr.(or is it professor now?) Ronald Wohl (Ravelli), originally from Switzerland, is an expert and studend of almost anything worthwhile in magic.
I remember him doing a pickpocket-demo/act, way back around the early 1960's and cardwork was his prime interest at that time..
He's one of those ppl one doesn't hear too much about, but nevertheless one of the most devoted students and EXPERTs on almost anything in magic connected to close-up work..
My regards to him when you se him again, luckily I'm sure he'll not remember me Smile
Learn a few things well.....this life is not long enough to do everything.....

( Words of wisdom from Albert Goshman ...it paid off for him - it might
as well for YOU!!!- My own magic is styled after that motto... Smile )
vernal
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I remember back in 93 or 94 I was in Times Square NYC with my GF and came across a monte crowd, and standing there watching was either a cop/guy dressed like a cop. At the time I thought he was a cop, and even though I knew Monte from my magic books I figured this was something else/something legit because the cop was watching and not doing anything. I tried to look but couldn't get a clear view because of some "spectators". A guy walked off and then the crowd cleared and I got a clear view. I guess they saw I was suspicious because I got to follow the next mix and was offered a free play. I picked correctly and the guy stuck out his hand with the $20 I had "won". Just then the cop smiled and walked off. I just stared at the guy and the money, and to the amazement of my GF I just walked away (after a long delay while I tried to understand what just happened, which went against everything I had read about). She kept bugging me about why I did that (I didn't even REACH for the money, despite the reassurances from the crowd that I had won) and I just said "I don't know what they were going to do next, but I know I wasn't going to be able to leave there with their money."

I've been obsessed with that incident ever since. Darwin O's and Whit Hayden/Chef Anton's book finally explained the situation, and I think those books/chapters should be issued to every cop. What gets me is the cop - because of that I almost bit. I can't swear it was a cop, and might be the newest addition to the mob, but I thought I would just put this out there. After reading this thread I am wondering if it was a "magic show" while the cop was there, and changed when he walked away.

Moderator, feel free to pull this post if you desire.

BTW, I posted the above in honor of Whit and his book. Thanks for frequenting the Café, Whit.
"Finger-flinging has about as much relation to magic as a Jazz Band has to Music." - J.B. Bobo. (I don't agree with the jazz comparison, but I still think the quote is funny.)

"Time you enjoy wasting, was not wasted." - John Lennon
ed rhodes
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Quote:
On 2004-04-21 08:58, Paddy wrote:
Quote:
On 2004-03-11 17:32, Oz Fan wrote:
I AM AN ENTERTAINER, NOT A CON MAN.


As a magician I have found that the two words are synonomous (spelling?) We con people (use misdirection) in order to entertain them.

I am proud to be both an entertainer and "con man."

Peter


You deceive people, it's not the same thing as being a "con-man." A con-man takes advantage of his audience and profits without actually giving fair value in return. In some cases, he's taking advantage of the greed or gullibility of the mark, I can think of one case where the mark simply trusted the nature of the business transaction and wasn't trying to get "something for nothing." (A man rented an apartment, putting down over $2,000 for first month's rent and security, and discovered on moving day that the "landlord" had rented the place to 12 different people at once.)
"There's no time to lose," I heard her say.
"Catch your dreams before they slip away."
"Dying all the time, lose your dreams and you could lose your mind.
Ain't life unkind?"
Police Magician
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Jack, I use Gamblers Beads and Dope on a Rope. Gamblers Beads have about 19 beads on it and one different color bead. The sequence is the key to winning. Dope on a Rope now uses a chain, but the spectator only has a 50-50 chance of winning the first time. The second time he places his finger in the hole, he loses 100% everytime.
Glenn
Glenn Hester

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912-571-8071

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