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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Lucky Sevens with Gerry Griffin (Volumes 1-3) (3 DVDs) » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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rnaviaux
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Mr. Youell - Where do I start? (Did you read my apology?)

You are right. I'm not an attorney. I certainly have very little knowledge of the applicable laws in this case.

Maybe I should have used the idiom/term "steal one's thunder" instead of just plain steal.

Idiom:
steal (someone's) thunder
To use, appropriate, or preempt the use of another's idea, especially to one's own advantage and without consent by the originator.

dictionary.com

I'll stick with crime however;

def. #3 A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.

I completely agree with this: "Damaging somneone's character on the internet without knowing the person, situation or any other facts is just as unethical as not crediting someone properly in a published work, in my opinion." For that I again apologize. (Truth be told there are some facts available in the actual publication of the DVD series.)

"Can you point to something we've all signed that closely defines unethical behaviour in this instance?" - Nope I can't. It is certainly a tradition that I have noticed in a majority of published works in magic to always credit the person from whom you draw inspiration. Fruther in Darwin Ortiz's latest book 'Scams and Fantasies' he mentions using a routine of Goldman's (monkey in the middle) to finish an Ambitious Card routine. He says one could make the gimmick without purchasing the marketed effect but that would be stealing. I took this heart and waited until I could purchase the effect in question before considering doing the routine with that ending. There is nothing that I have signed that says I have to do this. But there are agreements that are unspoken but exist nevertheless.

In summation if I put out a video with Albert Goshmans routine and call it jumping coins with my name on the front of the case then it is stealing and as such is a crime.

The question is did Mr. Griffin ask for any permissions to present those tricks on a DVD series with his name on it? (Specifically Capitulating Queens.) Since he is a friend of yours maybe you could ask him.

Sincerely,

Randy Naviaux

PS "I am from America. I am familiar with the quote "innocent until proven guilty."

PPS "Again I apologize for saying anything that would lower the repute of Mr. Griffin."


Posted: Jan 10, 2005 3:34pm
Mr. Youell - I'm curious about one other thing. If I took an effect of yours, renamed it and sold it as mine would that be okay with you? Also would you mind if I didn't credit where I learned the routine from?

Randy
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2005-01-10 15:23, rnaviaux wrote:

In summation if I put out a video with Albert Goshmans routine and call it jumping coins with my name on the front of the case then it is stealing and as such is a crime.


No, it is not. It could easily be considered unethical, but it is not a crime.
Now that's not my opinion, it's the Supreme Courts opininon, and as such, it's
the law of the land. Until you understand the difference, I see no reason to
coninue this discussion.

Steven Youell
rnaviaux
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Lol - Um...okay.

Randy
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Quote:
On 2005-01-10 15:34, rnaviaux wrote:
I took an effect of yours, renamed it and sold it as mine would that be okay with you?


No. It would not be OK with me. I would consider it unethical. But I would
not accuse you of a crime.

Quote:
On 2005-01-10 15:34, rnaviaux wrote:
Also would you mind if I didn't credit where I learned the routine from?


Again, you are obviously not able to distinguish between what is illegal and
what is unethical. Failing to credit someone in a magic publication is not
illegal, however it may be unethical.

BTW-- lol is usually used by people who really don't have a solid argument...

Steven Youell
rnaviaux
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Dear Mr. Youell - Actually "lol" was used because you said you didn't want to continue the discussion and that made me laugh.

Did you read the definition I posted re: crime?

I never said he was doing something that could get him arrested. This is the impression you are giving when you bring up some decision by the supreme court. Also you brought up the issue of illegality and not me.

I'll reiterate:

Steal: To take (the property of another) without right or permission.

Crime: A serious offense, especially one in violation of morality.

Plagiarize: To use and pass off (the ideas or writings of another) as one's own.

I watched the dvds (I once again admit that I skipped some of the explanations.)and could find no evidence that he credited anyone for any of these effects.
My question still stands: Did he get permission to include Capitulating Queens?

From your replies (or rather lack of replies) on this subject I can only conclude that he didn't get permission. (I also have to conclude that you are endorsing this "unethical" action. Which doesn't make much sense to me.)

Once again I apologize for giving you, and anyone else, the impression that Mr. Griffin was engaging in actions that were illegal. As you say, I have no knowledge of illegal acts by Mr. Griffin. (And I can see how the use of the word "criminal" could give the impression that I thought such.)

I need to ask this. Have you watched these DVDs? Am I mistaken in seeing effects without crediting that were creations of others? Does he at any point clarify that these effects originate with others?

Do you know if he asked Mr. Swain if he would mind if his effect (Capitulating Queens) was included?

You are jumping all over me about my slandering Mr. Griffin which I have apologized for yet you haven't said much about the questions I continue to present.

One more time: Did Mr. Griffin have permission to include 'Capitulating Queens' in this work?

Sincerely,

Randy Naviaux
gilbert3
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Just answer the question!
Steven Youell
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Quote:
On 2005-01-10 17:20, rnaviaux wrote:

My question still stands: Did he get permission to include Capitulating Queens?


I don't know. The difference between you and I though, is that because someone
didn't follow your standards, you accuse them of theft. I, on the other hand, am willing to give someone the benefit of the doubt before I disparage their character in a public forum.

Quote:
From your replies (or rather lack of replies) on this subject I can only conclude that he didn't get permission. (I also have to conclude that you are endorsing this "unethical" action. Which doesn't make much sense to me.)


Again, you make an unwarranted assumption and not only disparage Gerry's
character AGAIN-- you disparage mine.

The truth is, you simply don't know what you're talking about and won't
admit it. I don't know whether Gerry had permission or not. Neither do you.
However, you're willing to damage a man's reputation on nothing more than
innuendo, unwarranted assumptions and fallacies.

I am not. You may continue your attempts at character assasination, but
I am confident that by now most people can see the difference between your
character and mine-- and I'm confident to leave it at that.

If you wish to continue this discussion, I'd be more than willing to do
it over the phone. Simply e-mail me at erdnase@cardguy.net and I'll send
you my phone number. We can talk about it then without boring the others.

Steven Youell
rnaviaux
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Fair enough.

Best,

Randy
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Dvd, Video tape, Audio tape & Compact discs. » » Lucky Sevens with Gerry Griffin (Volumes 1-3) (3 DVDs) » » TOPIC IS LOCKED (0 Likes)
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