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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Marc Spelmann tweets this... (20 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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SolidSnake
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"I'm not aware of any other profession that is so bombarded with so many deluded novices." SPELMANN 2014 #spelmannsays

Frankly I find this very rude, insulting and full of hypocrisy.

This is the same guy who will have no problem selling his wares to the so called deluded novice.

Thoughts?
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IAIN
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Everyone is entitled to their own opinion!
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SolidSnake
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Indeed and to be fair to him he replied to my tweet and said that it's not effects that make a novice but attitude and he doesn't sell that. Which is fair enough. Just felt that the tweet he sent out could be taken offensively by people that are fans of his and buy his work.
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Ulrich
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From when is mentalism a profession?

We are hired to entertain, so we are entertainers. I can't see any difference in the final result between mentalist's performance and lets say stand-up comedian's (except our performances are much more better right? Smile)

Of course, if mentalist is good, he/she have the power to change perception of spectator, he can even change his/her life. You can't do that obviously when you are pushing a corn through your eye...

So with this being said, I think, that mentalism is the only entertainment, that can affect audience on a deeper level (as far as I know), maybe we are not as funny as comedians are, maybe we are not as sexy as lap-dancers are, maybe we can't sing so great as singers can (except Chester Sass, he is a really great singer!) but we can provide something really wonderful - an unforgettable moment. That funny guy will be fotgotten, that sexy girls will be forgotten, but that mysterious man, that knew how old I was when I first fallen in love and even her name, that guy will last forever.

So do I agree with him? Yes and no. The true is, that many novices and beginners can make mentalism look very bad, non-entertaining and non-affecting. That's bad for clients that hired them, and bad for us, mentalists, who are now in much harder position to get job, after such a horrible experience. But without novices, who would continue in making a wonderful history for mentalists and mystery entertainers then? Can you imagine Kenton Knepper saying to young Pete Turner, who approached him and asked him for help, saying "No, you are just a deluded novice, I don't care about you." Yes, we may lost one of the most wonderful performers and creators I have ever seen in my life.

I love Marc's material, his persona is really mysterious and entertaining and he seems like a good guy, so I'm sure he didn't meant to offend anyone Smile But sometimes, it's good to rethink what you are posting on social sites.

Blessings
Ulrich
Jamie D
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I've seen many "novices" that far exceed so called professionals, take it with a grain of salt.
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Scott Soloff
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, Clel-Mentalist wrote:
"I'm not aware of any other profession that is so bombarded with so many deluded novices." SPELMANN 2014 #spelmannsays

Frankly I find this very rude, insulting and full of hypocrisy.

This is the same guy who will have no problem selling his wares to the so called deluded novice.

Thoughts?


Personally, I believe that he has it half right.

Our profession is definitely bombarded with deluded novices... So are many others!

It is human nature and what makes the world go round.

Case in point: I recently attended a lecture (masterfully done, I might add) regarding mentalism. There were perhaps 30 or so people in attendance. I know for a fact that one of those in the audience (besides myself) was a professional mentalist.

Of those remaining, in my opinion, not one will ever go on to provide a professional level performance. A few may achieve a level of technical competence. But, none will ever be able to do justice to a mentalism show.

Even as I type this it is obvious this is harsh and judgmental and highly critical. It is; however, merely the nature of the beast.

And, if you believe that I'm being unduly negative in my comments, consider the analogy of professional baseball.

How many do you suppose are enthusiastic amateurs in grade school, high school and college. Now stop and consider how many go on to try out for the big leagues. Out of those, how many actually get accepted to a farm team. And from there, go on to play in the majors. Very few!

How many actually achieve top level status in any field? For the most part, the vast majority are mediocre at best.

And that is, as Alice said, that!


Best wishes,


Scott
p.s. That's enough negativity from me for the time being. My contributions will be more positive in the immediate future (I hope).
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lunatik
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, Clel-Mentalist wrote:
Indeed and to be fair to him he replied to my tweet and said that it's not effects that make a novice but attitude and he doesn't sell that. Which is fair enough. Just felt that the tweet he sent out could be taken offensively by people that are fans of his and buy his work.


But he also knows that the majority of his sales are generated by these deluded novices, he knows exactly what he's doing. If he's so concerned, why doesn't he only sell his effects to known professionals only? The answer is money. I don't have twitter but please feel to copy and paste it.
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Tom Cutts
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I used to think that, too. Then American Idol came along. I always thoughts those people howling and screeching knew they couldn't sing, but I guess they think they are stars in the making. Smile
Mindpro
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, Clel-Mentalist wrote:
"I'm not aware of any other profession that is so bombarded with so many deluded novices." SPELMANN 2014 #spelmannsays

Frankly I find this very rude, insulting and full of hypocrisy.

This is the same guy who will have no problem selling his wares to the so called deluded novice.

Thoughts?



Personally I couldn't agree more with his sentiments and what Scott has posted as his reply. Many, actually MOST here are not professionals so they are not capable of understanding what Marc is stating. It is like this in any profession, but magic has some it's own uniqueness that makes this more common than normal since many become involved with magic at such a young age and have trouble separating amateurs, hobbyists and enthusiasts with a professional that does this day in and day out as a living to support their family. Big difference. It's a difference that is understood and experienced on a level much deeper for these professionals than the others likely will ever comprehend.

You are also combining two of Marc's business interests and lumping them together. His performing as a professional is separate from his retail magic selling business and projects. Two different businesses, two different audiences, two different perceptions and two different attitudes and approaches.

Unfortunately this is one of the problems with the Internet and forums like this is amateurs and enthusiasts have access to working professionals and somehow become disillusioned in to believing they are somehow on the same level and playing field. They're not. Entertainers today are not truly honest with themselves about their true level and separating the hierarchy of the profession. This continues when these guys themselves view and accept things from this distorted perception and start to believe the deluded perception. Everything from that point on continues to be deluded and disillusioned.

Rather than understanding this and being appreciative that they have such access to these levels of professionals, they somehow feel they have the right to complain. Traditionally, younger or performers at these lesser levels looked up to, respected, learned from and appreciated this professionals and their efforts to share the knowledge, experience and materials and would NEVER even think of such disrespect and behavior.
Scott Soloff
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, lunatik wrote:

But he also knows that the majority of his sales are generated by these deluded novices, he knows exactly what he's doing. If he's so concerned, why doesn't he only sell his effects to known professionals only? The answer is money. I don't have twitter but please feel to copy and paste it.


Two quick points...

That's not completely fair. It sounds to me, and I could be mistaken, that he is expressing a certain amount of frustration.

Second, you sell to everyone because you don't know where the next pro is coming from.

Oh, and by the way, when did 'money' become a dirty word?

As always, best wishes,


Scott
p.s. I'm not interested in this thread degenerating into a juvenile argument. My point is that it is easy to comprehend where he is coming from.
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colin72
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Spelmann is absolutely right.

Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, Clel-Mentalist wrote:
Just felt that the tweet he sent out could be taken offensively by people that are fans of his and buy his work.


This is the internet. There's always going to be somebody who gets offended and upset no matter what is said.

If you worry about the lowest common denominator, nothing would ever be said online... or any where else.
IAIN
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I would like to offer a different perspective...

i think modern life has changed sufficiently to allow/enable people to diversify...whereas a few decades ago, you could (from what I can see at least - might be wrong) - be able to tour a show for a couple of years, drop and switch maybe one or two items, but basically the same "thing"...

whereas now, the market wants something new every year...

and, because of that diversification, people no longer "just" work that show, they also release work, they lecture, they may even have other interests that are also revenue streams...others may even have such a rewarding job that they do not want to give it up, but still offer a pro-show, and do smaller tours...plus a few other things in between...

i think (maybe) that some don't realise or don't want to accept that...i think full-time working pros are shrinking year in, year out...and maybe, behind the curtains, they diversify too, but just don't let on!

the term "full time working pro" still carries weight, even if that weight is used by some to beat down everyone else...which is a shame...

then there's the people who make up the vast majority - those that just enjoy it, maybe they don't even want to perform at all, or just want something to show some mates socially...and then there's others who want to perform more, and either do or don't - either they do in their head, or they try their hardest to perform as much as they can..its probably that section that buy the most of the stuff released...

and then there's another section that perform and perform "a bit", enough to improve and to develop, and they are maybe constantly trying to decide where to go, and how to shift a gear or two...

and to make it even more confusing, there's some that do a lot of related things at once, to create enough income to ONLY do those 'things'...so someone might do walk around as a magician, but also do a small mentalism set elsewhere, release a thing or two, maybe even lecture on occasion...then there's those that don't want to perform, but have a knack to create, or those that have a knack to create but like to perform and farm it out to others...

and amongst ALL of those variants, (of which there are even MORE) - you have some who should really be doing one of the other variants, others who are far better than they think they are, and some who are worse than they want to admit...(this is starting to feel like Bilbo's leaving speech)...

basically - modern life and social media and all other things in between give you a wide area to cast your net...casting your net equals making money, making money gives you options (to put on your own show, go to fringe festivals, take a chance on something new and so on)...options usually gives you a creative spark and outline, and so it goes on and on...

i have seen some terrible "full time professionals", and some excellent "amateurs" perform...i have read the ideas of both sets and loved and hated both in equal measure...some pro's bore me to tears, some amateurs fill me with dread that these people even exist...

i guess what I am driving at is this - just because you are "example A", doesn't mean you are "descriptive term B"...so really, all you can ever do is go on the individual in question...
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Scott Soloff
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, IAIN wrote:
I would like to offer a different perspective...

i think modern life has changed sufficiently to allow/enable people to diversify...whereas a few decades ago, you could (from what I can see at least - might be wrong) - be able to tour a show for a couple of years, drop and switch maybe one or two items, but basically the same "thing"...

whereas now, the market wants something new every year...

and, because of that diversification, people no longer "just" work that show, they also release work, they lecture, they may even have other interests that are also revenue streams...others may even have such a rewarding job that they do not want to give it up, but still offer a pro-show, and do smaller tours...plus a few other things in between...

i think (maybe) that some don't realise or don't want to accept that...i think full-time working pros are shrinking year in, year out...and maybe, behind the curtains, they diversify too, but just don't let on!

the term "full time working pro" still carries weight, even if that weight is used by some to beat down everyone else...which is a shame...

then there's the people who make up the vast majority - those that just enjoy it, maybe they don't even want to perform at all, or just want something to show some mates socially...and then there's others who want to perform more, and either do or don't - either they do in their head, or they try their hardest to perform as much as they can..its probably that section that buy the most of the stuff released...

and then there's another section that perform and perform "a bit", enough to improve and to develop, and they are maybe constantly trying to decide where to go, and how to shift a gear or two...

and to make it even more confusing, there's some that do a lot of related things at once, to create enough income to ONLY do those 'things'...so someone might do walk around as a magician, but also do a small mentalism set elsewhere, release a thing or two, maybe even lecture on occasion...then there's those that don't want to perform, but have a knack to create, or those that have a knack to create but like to perform and farm it out to others...

and amongst ALL of those variants, (of which there are even MORE) - you have some who should really be doing one of the other variants, others who are far better than they think they are, and some who are worse than they want to admit...(this is starting to feel like Bilbo's leaving speech)...

basically - modern life and social media and all other things in between give you a wide area to cast your net...casting your net equals making money, making money gives you options (to put on your own show, go to fringe festivals, take a chance on something new and so on)...options usually gives you a creative spark and outline, and so it goes on and on...

i have seen some terrible "full time professionals", and some excellent "amateurs" perform...i have read the ideas of both sets and loved and hated both in equal measure...some pro's bore me to tears, some amateurs fill me with dread that these people even exist...

i guess what I am driving at is this - just because you are "example A", doesn't mean you are "descriptive term B"...so really, all you can ever do is go on the individual in question...



Smile

Just to clarify...

When I said 'professional', I'm referring to the level of performance and not to the denotation of making a living.

There are full time professionals that make my teeth grind. Likewise, some of the most beautiful performances have come from 'amateurs'.

Other than that, my original assessment stands: the vast majority... Oh, sh!t, I'm even going to go there!


Best to all,


Scott
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Scott Soloff
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Iain's the first person to inspire smiley faces in my posts...
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IAIN
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, Scott Soloff wrote:
Iain's the first person to inspire smiley faces in my posts...


i'm writing an ebook all about smiley faces RIGHT NOW!

*joking*
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Scott Soloff
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Joke if you will. But I can see it now...

Smiley Physiognomy by TGS.


Best,

Scott
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Unfortunately due to things like karaoke, the Xfactor and Britain's got talent, you only have to watch for a few minutes to realise just how many deluded folks are out there. Most of the people that get up and sing on a karaoke machine really believe that they are good singers !
How many times have you finished a show only to have someone say '' oh you are much better than so and so on the telly. Of course we know this is not true, otherwise we would be on the telly as well, but I can see what Marc is getting at. Magic/mentalism done badly is really bad, but people will quite gladly go to a karaoke bar to listen to folks they know can't sing. However get a young kid trying to show them his latest miracle and they will shoot him down in flames.
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lunatik
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Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, Scott Soloff wrote:
Quote:
On Jun 28, 2014, lunatik wrote:

But he also knows that the majority of his sales are generated by these deluded novices, he knows exactly what he's doing. If he's so concerned, why doesn't he only sell his effects to known professionals only? The answer is money. I don't have twitter but please feel to copy and paste it.


Two quick points...

That's not completely fair. It sounds to me, and I could be mistaken, that he is expressing a certain amount of frustration.

Second, you sell to everyone because you don't know where the next pro is coming from.

Oh, and by the way, when did 'money' become a dirty word?

As always, best wishes,


Scott
p.s. I'm not interested in this thread degenerating into a juvenile argument. My point is that it is easy to comprehend where he is coming from.


I'm not saying that he's not frustrated, but I am saying that he is contributing to the issue. While it is true that he doesn't know where the next pro is coming from, it's also true that he knows 98% of the people that buy his products will not become pro's, hence, is it worth selling all of these products when the end result is what is causing his frustrations? He likes the money but doesn't like the side effects of doing business. Nothing wrong at all making money, but he has to come to terms with everything else at some point in time. Just my thoughts.
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Mindpro
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I think it's a misnomer that these guys really make any true money with these products.
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I think that Iain's post is the one that has struck the right balance in this thread so far. I can't agree with you George about the fact that being on TV means you are any good. Again, I've seen some horrendous performers on TV. Television is an animal that is fed by "connections" for the large part. Also, consider the fact that a lot of these wannabes on reality TV know fine well that they are no good, but it makes for good TV, Simon Cowell gets richer, and the wannabe proves Andy Warhol was right.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
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