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mastermindreader
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Do you know of any studies to support that conclusion?
Magnus Eisengrim
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On Jul 26, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think that's indoctrination and parroting, and I certainly don't take Stone to be suggesting that that doesn't happen; what I'm saying is that even in the absence of such "teaching," a rather large percentage of kids raised in, let's say, a "neutral environment," will find differences in some other kids and use them to ostracize/torment/etc. those other kids.


Hard to know what a "neutral environment" might be. It's very hard to escape culture.

Taboos on homosexuality appear to be historically very much a matter of local circumstance. 2000 years ago, you would find approval and widespread (male to male) homosexuality scattered from the Italian peninsula, across the Mediterranean through much of what is now Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and probably well into India and beyond. You would also find strict prohibitions of homosexuality dotted throughout the same region, notably in Rome and much of what we now call the Middle East.

It is at least largely an accident of history that two religions that forbade homosexuality arose from the Middle East and spread over most of the Western world.

The point is that attitudes toward homosexuality appear to be more strongly culturally controlled than innate to humans.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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On Jul 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Do you know of any studies to support that conclusion?


Nope...just observation. Do you any to dispute it?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jul 26, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 26, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
I think that's indoctrination and parroting, and I certainly don't take Stone to be suggesting that that doesn't happen; what I'm saying is that even in the absence of such "teaching," a rather large percentage of kids raised in, let's say, a "neutral environment," will find differences in some other kids and use them to ostracize/torment/etc. those other kids.


Hard to know what a "neutral environment" might be. It's very hard to escape culture.

Taboos on homosexuality appear to be historically very much a matter of local circumstance. 2000 years ago, you would find approval and widespread (male to male) homosexuality scattered from the Italian peninsula, across the Mediterranean through much of what is now Turkey, Iran, Iraq, and probably well into India and beyond. You would also find strict prohibitions of homosexuality dotted throughout the same region, notably in Rome and much of what we now call the Middle East.

It is at least largely an accident of history that two religions that forbade homosexuality arose from the Middle East and spread over most of the Western world.

The point is that attitudes toward homosexuality appear to be more strongly culturally controlled than innate to humans.


I'm not talking specifically about anti-homosexuality bias (and I didn't take Stone to be, either). It could be race, body type, etc.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Even racism is a very recent phenomenon. It simply does not seem to exist in the ancient literature. To be a slave was to be the victim of military conquest, not to be a member of a group with particularly coloured skin. At least not until well into the middle ages. Prohibitions against marrying outside your group tended to have more to do with religious restriction or citizenship issues.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
mastermindreader
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Lobo- I seriously doubt that bigotry and intolerance of others is genetic.
tommy
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When you hear a six-year-old little girl, at a gay pride march, shouting, Gay Pride! Gride Pride! Gay Pride, Gay Pride! not only there, but there and all the way home home and not only that but around the house for hours and for days after, will you believe the kids are being brain washed or not?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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Of course. But they aren't being indoctrinated to hate. They are being taught tolerance.

Big difference.
LobowolfXXX
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On Jul 26, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Even racism is a very recent phenomenon. It simply does not seem to exist in the ancient literature. To be a slave was to be the victim of military conquest, not to be a member of a group with particularly coloured skin. At least not until well into the middle ages. Prohibitions against marrying outside your group tended to have more to do with religious restriction or citizenship issues.


Again, I'm not talking about any particular difference. Got any ancient literature that suggests that typical reasonably-large groups of children played together in harmony without any of them singled out and picked on or ostracized? Because that's the one that I suspect would be a *very* recent phenomenon.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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It's a fact that children imitate the behaviors they see in adults.
LobowolfXXX
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On Jul 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Lobo- I seriously doubt that bigotry and intolerance of others is genetic.


I attended three different schools prior to high school. I've been involved in youth chess tournaments, little league baseball (as a player and a coach), and I've been a teacher. In my experience, groups of kids where a few aren't singled out and picked on or ostracized under one pretext or another are few and far between. And when the group is homogenous enough that racism and sexuality aren't an issue, it'll be the kids who wear the wrong clothes, or like the wrong music, or talk differently, or wear glasses. None of which is (presumably) taught by parents.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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It persists in the face of parental teachings to the contrary, in fact - include Jimmy, even if he's not good at sports, or popular, or whatever.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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No- often it is taught by other kids who, in turn, learned similar behaviors from their parents.

But we're really getting into the old tabula rasa argument here.
LobowolfXXX
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Got any studies that show that it doesn't happen in the absence of such teaching?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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On Jul 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
It's a fact that children imitate the behaviors they see in adults.


It's a fact that doesn't undermine my position in the slightest.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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On Jul 26, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Got any studies that show that it doesn't happen in the absence of such teaching?


No. Like your opinion, it's just my observation. Do you have any studies to dispute it? Smile

But I suggest that the "alpha" kids I mentioned in my last post, who imitate observed behavior in adults, are also a factor.
LobowolfXXX
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On Jul 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

But I suggest that the "alpha" kids I mentioned in my last post, who imitate observed behavior in adults, are also a factor.


Strongly agree.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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So ultimately, through these "alphas" it is adult behaviour that's being imitated.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Jul 26, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 26, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Even racism is a very recent phenomenon. It simply does not seem to exist in the ancient literature. To be a slave was to be the victim of military conquest, not to be a member of a group with particularly coloured skin. At least not until well into the middle ages. Prohibitions against marrying outside your group tended to have more to do with religious restriction or citizenship issues.


Again, I'm not talking about any particular difference. Got any ancient literature that suggests that typical reasonably-large groups of children played together in harmony without any of them singled out and picked on or ostracized? Because that's the one that I suspect would be a *very* recent phenomenon.


That is one I'd love to know more about. Sadly, precious little is known about childrearing before the past couple of centuries. I suspect that there was wide variation. Your point that we are acutely aware of child conflict today is well taken.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jul 26, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
So ultimately, through these "alphas" it is adult behaviour that's being imitated.


Strongly disagree.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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