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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Your preference: The psychological approach vs the paranormal approach. (17 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mastermindreader
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Again you miss my point. Your implication was that those who accept a paranormal premise are somehow less intelligent than those who don't. And, as I said, that is clearly not the case. What makes that clear to me? The fact that I know many highly intelligent people who accept that the scientific case for psi has been made, but that we simply haven't yet figured out its precise mechanism.

That, and my own experience. It's amazing how many people who say they don't accept psi, nonetheless believe in such things as luck, hunches and intuition.
IAIN
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, Ben Blau wrote:
The moment someone says that they find it "funny" that I am expressing my well considered opinion, which was stated as such, it makes me realize that we can probably no longer have meaningful discourse on this topic. It's too bad that you feel the need to ridicule my position just because I disagree with you.


then you're doing the discussion a diservice... and c'mon - do you really think its NOT 'funny' that someone who is a skeptic, and pro-science is making claims without any evidence to back it up?!

we are exchanging opinions, nothing more..don't be so protective...
IbiMania
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, IAIN wrote:
Also, Gallup polls are viable in terms of research...more so than opinion!
http://www.gallup.com/poll/16915/Three-F......mal.aspx
as an example (thought the data is old)
http://www.gallup.com/poll/4483/American......ade.aspx


Ben's criteria for belief is that people actually go to psychics and believe in there power enough to get help from them.

his evidence would be that a majority does not consult psychics so they do not believe in psychics. (I find this a bit flawed because people can believe in ESP and other limited paranormal experiences without becoming worshippers)

Your criteria of belief is someone say "yes I believe in the paranormal" in a poll. (I think people who would say they believe in psychic experience are in fact likely to be convinced by a good performance).

So on this matter, I will side with IAIN.

However, I will continue to use psychological premise just because I am more comfortable that way.
IAIN
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Take tarot reading, you can take a psychologically driven approach to it, I mean Jung even wrote a book on it..you could go for the traditional "vibes" and reader style approach too...both work, both are believable/viable if done well...

when you then consider the dali tarot and the book on it, dr hoy's book on it...there's a few other alternative ways to those two standard approaches...
Ben Blau
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I made no claims, I stated opinions. And I stand by them (as I should, and so should you). I see no reason to change my views, as I haven't observed any compelling reason to do so. Even Bob's intelligent friends who believe in genuine psychic phenomena probably wouldn't stake their life on it. And I don't doubt that they are intelligent. I do doubt that their belief runs as deep as is being assumed.
IbiMania
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, IAIN wrote:
Take tarot reading, you can take a psychologically driven approach to it, I mean Jung even wrote a book on it..you could go for the traditional "vibes" and reader style approach too...both work, both are believable/viable if done well...

when you then consider the dali tarot and the book on it, dr hoy's book on it...there's a few other alternative ways to those two standard approaches...


Whenever I go back to Banachek's ESP sign trick (performance) (reference: Psi series, vol 1) I find it interesting that it can be taken scientifically as well as paranormally.

He mentions the experiment with ESP and how the signs were created for a study, then withot claiming to use any science demonstrates ESP.

Nothing says "Think whatever you want" better than that.
IbiMania
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Ben, The belief does not need to be "Staking-life-deep" for an audience to enjoy or be convinced of an act.
There are a lot of children who believe criss angel can really levitate, however I do not see anyone suggesting him as an eco-friendly replacement for private jets.
Ben Blau
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Again you miss my point. Your implication was that those who accept a paranormal premise are somehow less intelligent than those who don't. And, as I said, that is clearly not the case. What makes that clear to me? The fact that I know many highly intelligent people who accept that the scientific case for psi has been made, but that we simply haven't yet figured out its precise mechanism.

That, and my own experience. It's amazing how many people who say they don't accept psi, nonetheless believe in such things as luck, hunches and intuition.


Bob, you may have missed my point as well. I am saying that intelligent audiences are far more likely to be skeptical than not. What are they MORE INCLINED to believe when they see a performance of a claimed psychic? That it is real, or a form of entertainment? I suspect the latter.
IAIN
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, IbiMania wrote:

Your criteria of belief is someone say "yes I believe in the paranormal" in a poll. (I think people who would say they believe in psychic experience are in fact likely to be convinced by a good performance).


its a bit more involved than that to be honest...

i am athiest, with interests (and have studied work on) existentialism and zen buddhism...my mum's side of the family tree were east end (london) tarot and tea leaf readers...i am a huge fan of Neil Neil deGrasse Tyson, but not of Hitchens or Dawkins, but am of Hawking...Studied Jung, am a fan of Miroslav Holub's poetry (who was also an immunologist and wrote poems about such things)... personally speaking, I believe that what people think is psychic, is more often than not, an overactive imagination, sometimes for good, sometimes for bad. Also, that people tend to allow their own biases to kick in, and enable them to paint in very broad brushstrokes. You, me, everyone. I think the imagination is absolutely beautiful and terrifying in the same breath. It amazes and confounds me in equal measure. That's why I'm so fascinated by it. I am more than happy to say "i dunno" to the whole psychic thing, I know there's some evidence to support some of it. I do not like the sneering from either side of the fence (which happens quite a lot). There are bad and con-artist style psychics, but not all of them. There is zero evidence to support that. I am keen on evidence and reality (as much as I am the imagination).

"when I look at these three tarot cards, I use my imagination to create a story, I tell you this story and you interpret it in your own reality...i can't give advice, I am just telling the story to you. No more, no less."

as I said before, both of the two major styles can be very entertaining, but always at the root of it all, its about ther person themselves... if they're dry as a bone personality wise...game over...
Ben Blau
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I can agree with everything in the above post.
mastermindreader
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In my experience, it breaks down pretty much like this (keep in mind that all I claim is that I read minds, I don't claim that it's either psychic OR psychologically based):

About 25% think it's psychic.
About 40% think it's all psychology
About 20% think its both, with possibly some trickery mixed in.
The remaining 15% think it's all BS.

The breakdown seems to have nothing to do with their intelligence or lack of it. I've had PhD's proclaim that I'm psychic, and high school drop outs who think I'm just a trickster.

But nearly all of them have found it entertaining.
IbiMania
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What I am deriving from all this is:
1) don't judge your audience.
2) Be bothered about entertaining not how they perceive you.

Am I doing this right?
mastermindreader
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Basically, yes. But if ALL of those who watch you conclude that it's just tricks, then you're doing something wrong. You may be entertaining, but you wouldn't be doing mentalism.
Ben Blau
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
In my experience, it breaks down pretty much like this (keep in mind that all I claim is that I read minds, I don't claim that it's either psychic OR psychologically based):

About 25% think it's psychic.
About 40% think it's all psychology
About 20% think its both, with possibly some trickery mixed in.
The remaining 15% think it's all BS.

The breakdown seems to have nothing to do with their intelligence or lack of it. I've had PhD's proclaim that I'm psychic, and high school drop outs who think I'm just a trickster.

But nearly all of them have found it entertaining.


The fact that you cite 40% of your audience believes it's psychological, vs 25% of your audience believing it's "psychic", without you trying to push for one belief vs the other, is precisely the point I am trying to make. What are they more likely to believe, when left to their own devices? Your own breakdown supports what I've been trying to communicate (albeit, unsuccessfully).
Marmen
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
In my experience, it breaks down pretty much like this (keep in mind that all I claim is that I read minds, I don't claim that it's either psychic OR psychologically based):

About 25% think it's psychic.
About 40% think it's all psychology
About 20% think its both, with possibly some trickery mixed in.
The remaining 15% think it's all BS.

The breakdown seems to have nothing to do with their intelligence or lack of it. I've had PhD's proclaim that I'm psychic, and high school drop outs who think I'm just a trickster.

But nearly all of them have found it entertaining.


I have a different estimate to Bob. I think 90% of people unless they hail from California think it is a trick and only 10 percent think it is for real. Of course I have always had a cynical mind. The ones who come up to you afterwards chattering about their dreams are among the 10 percent.

Another estimate is that of Jon Tremaine a noted British mentalist who stated that a third believe, a third don't believe and a third are not sure. And he said "It is the controversy that keeps you working". Mind you, he didn't take into account people from California.
IbiMania
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On Jul 24, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Basically, yes. But if ALL of those who watch you conclude that it's just tricks, then you're doing something wrong. You may be entertaining, but you wouldn't be doing mentalism.


Thankfully, that has never happened though I just cannot convince my Dad for some reason. haha.
mastermindreader
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I don't think any of us could convince our families.
IAIN
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@Ben - its come across that you consider the stats provided (the gallup and bob's own) that the percentages are not significant in any way, despite them being (roughly) 1 in 4 people...but statistically speaking, it is...say you were at a big dining table, 12 people...three of those are gonna be believers, mixed in with a few who are open minded to the idea of believing in "something"...so now we're talking near to half of the 12 being very interested in psychic presentations...

that's what its felt like to me at least...
IAIN
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, Marmen wrote:
Another estimate is that of Jon Tremaine a noted British mentalist who stated that a third believe, a third don't believe and a third are not sure. And he said "It is the controversy that keeps you working". Mind you, he didn't take into account people from California.


and the evidence will certainly indicate very similar thinking...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/16915/Three-F......mal.aspx
Ben Blau
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Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, Marmen wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 24, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
In my experience, it breaks down pretty much like this (keep in mind that all I claim is that I read minds, I don't claim that it's either psychic OR psychologically based):

About 25% think it's psychic.
About 40% think it's all psychology
About 20% think its both, with possibly some trickery mixed in.
The remaining 15% think it's all BS.

The breakdown seems to have nothing to do with their intelligence or lack of it. I've had PhD's proclaim that I'm psychic, and high school drop outs who think I'm just a trickster.

But nearly all of them have found it entertaining.


I have a different estimate to Bob. I think 90% of people unless they hail from California think it is a trick and only 10 percent think it is for real. Of course I have always had a cynical mind. The ones who come up to you afterwards chattering about their dreams are among the 10 percent.

Another estimate is that of Jon Tremaine a noted British mentalist who stated that a third believe, a third don't believe and a third are not sure. And he said "It is the controversy that keeps you working". Mind you, he didn't take into account people from California.


My guess is that you are close to spot on. I'm sure nearly 100% of Bob's audiences are mystefied and entertained, however. I like the fact that an audience can just experience and enjoy the enigma on its own merits. I personally want to encourage an "I don't know" response in the face of an apparently convincing demonstration, as long as it makes an impactful and intellectually provocative impression.
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