The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Corinda (16 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next]
Davidzajac
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Davidzajac
I'm not awannabe. I've been spending all my free time while balancing school to do magic and mentalism. Recently I made the switch. In order to remain in the community, I perform something for someone every chance I get. I keep a journal to keep track of my progress and I review that journal. I havnt been doing these things long enough to form a habit. I used to perform magic for my mom so I know when I'm doing a good job. I don't need to fail like you say. And unless there is a controlled environment I don't see how a survey of failures would benefit me at all.
Davidzajac
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Davidzajac
I'm not awannabe. I've been spending all my free time while balancing school to do magic and mentalism. Recently I made the switch. In order to remain in the community, I perform something for someone every chance I get. I keep a journal to keep track of my progress and I review that journal. I havnt been doing these things long enough to form a habit. I used to perform magic for my mom so I know when I'm doing a good job. I don't need to fail like you say. And unless there is a controlled environment I don't see how a survey of failures would benefit me at all.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12590 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
You'll never know if you're doing a good job because you perform for your mom and she says so.

Your mom will always love you. Paying audiences aren't quite the same.
Davidzajac
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Davidzajac
K that's true but I also agree with you that I should do my best.
Engali
View Profile
Elite user
435 Posts

Profile of Engali
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2014, sandsjr wrote:
Engali:

let's revisit

#1 You're either foolish or lazy if you don't take the time to set up an out, or something to say, once you find a vulnerability in your routine. So, the second time you have a mishap at that same place, you're prepared with something. You don't want to ad-lib AGAIN.

#2 You ask if . ??? is a question or a statement. I could have been more clear. I was wondering why you thought the points I made were "good" points and then proceeded to describe why they were not in the second paragraph. I presume what you called good points were these...

Quote:
"My guess is intentionally failing won't recreate the same physiological/psychological response as failing when you have something on the line and you're not expecting it. In fact, I think the act of failing intentionally could have the unintended consequence of making your more fearful in the future of failing for real."

But then went on to recommend they do it anyway. I didn't understand the reasoning.


This is fun to talk about but is getting convoluted with all the back and forth and paragraphs of text. Too bad we can't all talk instead of having to type into these scrolling rectangles. Smile

I'm an optimist and believe anything is possible. If you have hangups of the type we talk about here yet are willing to do whatever it takes to surmount them, I wish you all the best! I say go for it!

But I remain a realist as well. Art should flow freely. Presuming your aim is to be competitive and earn your living doing it... If you are starting out having to set up artificial situations out of the gate plus having to tread lightly for fear of what lurks around the corner, you are at an extreme disadvantage and your time here on the big rock might be better served doing something else.


1) "You're either foolish or lazy if you don't take the time to set up an out, or something to say, once you find a vulnerability in your routine. So, the second time you have a mishap at that same place, you're prepared with something. You don't want to ad-lib AGAIN."

Right. I said in the post you were responding to that one should be doing that, so you're arguing a point I already endorsed beforehand...? I don't see what you were disagreeing with besides the definition of ad-libbing, which I addressed in my last post.

2) Because the good points I was referring to were the points you and Bob made about preparation--note that I opened that paragraph stating that I thought there were good points raised and proceeded to delineate the points you, Bob, and I agreed with. It's just that I already addressed them and qualified my statements already. Read the second sentence of that post. The point is, it helps, but it doesn't help everybody and not the people I am referring to.

As for: "My guess is intentionally failing won't recreate the same physiological/psychological response as failing when you have something on the line and you're not expecting it. In fact, I think the act of failing intentionally could have the unintended consequence of making your more fearful in the future of failing for real."

The point of the second paragraph that you call longwinded was to address what I just quoted--which I did not think was a good point. This was a separate paragraph--sorry if that wasn't clear. The point is: doing that may be devastating to someone who is having issues with the idea of failing in this context in the first place. Like I already said, it's obviously an important part of the learning process and building confidence if you're not already in an unhelpful mindset, but getting there may be an issue for some people getting there in the first place.

And no, I don't have these hangups. Just an ardent student of psychology. I think art should flow as well, but sometimes people just need something to get them unstuck. It isn't necessarily the case that this crippling fear will only go away slowly. Given the right intervention, it could resolve itself with just this one act. Obviously learning will need to take place and confidence built and nerves will still probably be present at points, but not to the immobilizing degree hold that it once had on someone before they did what they feared.
Engali
View Profile
Elite user
435 Posts

Profile of Engali
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
The bottom line, though, is that most people aren't cut out for show business in the first place, and I'd recommend that someone with the extreme issues you speak of should consider another career that's not so much in the public eye.

Have you considered that someone following your advice may actually be devastated if the audience starts to heckle derisively? If he had self-esteem issues to begin with, throwing him into the frying pan may not be the wisest course of action

Mentalism is not, despite what the ads tell us, something that anyone can do well.


That's unfortunate because it suggests that you have an entity theory mindset about performance skills; you don't think most people can develop into performers? In your view, would you say "some people have it and some people just don't?" Do you feel like "natural talent" should dictate who goes into what profession or even hobby?

As I mentioned in my previous post, it's only extreme in the reaction, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that the issue is insurmoutable and may even be quickly resolved given the right intervention.

I have considered the consequences of what I have been talking about. I was offering a perspective on when it may be justifiable to fail on purpose. I believe these types of interventions should be at least planned, if not monitored live by a psychologist. And I think the consequences, in terms of lowered self esteem from people heckling, would actually be more likely if that person were to do what you have suggested: go out and put everything they had into the performance. I think failing on purpose gives the person the actual experience of what is feared (failure and unfavorable reactions) without the negative implications to their self-worth because that wasn't on the line in the scenario. In effect, they are learning that failure isn't always about who they are because they failed big when their "self" wasn't on the line, and so anything negative comes out of that cannot be about who they are. Alternatively, if they fail as you suggest (i.e., putting everything they have into it), it would feel like their "self" was responsible and made bad by the failure or that it indicates they are bad, cannot be good, and should give up. Now, again, this type of learning is important to build *confidence* (or self efficacy) once someone is actually on the road to learning a skill set and in the right frame of mind, but with the people I am talking about doing that would be not only quite devastating, but likely improbable to even do since they are hung up on failing in the first place.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12590 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2014, Engali wrote:

That's unfortunate because it suggests that you have an entity theory mindset about performance skills; you don't think most people can develop into performers? In your view, would you say "some people have it and some people just don't?" Do you feel like "natural talent" should dictate who goes into what profession or even hobby?



Yes, that's exactly what I think. Except for the hobby part. What's unfortunate is the trivialization of the art that has resulted from the erroneous belief that anyone can do mentalism. And, unfortunately, they often do.
sandsjr
View Profile
Special user
837 Posts

Profile of sandsjr
Engali, I'm sorry you took my post to mean I was inferring you had these hangups. That isn't what I meant. I assume you are a counselor of some kind and help people in this type situation, no?

If a person is just beginning (hasn't invested countless hours) and must get psychological help just to take the initial step, I think looking at a different path might be a better option. It would be akin to a couple just meeting and having to see a councilor to help make their dates manageable. Alarm bells should go off in your head. Why force something when you can be in harmony with something else?
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12590 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
I get the impression, Engali, that you're an academic rather than a professional performer. Am I correct?
sandsjr
View Profile
Special user
837 Posts

Profile of sandsjr
In the spirit of being helpful, a suggestion might be to join Toastmasters. I know people who have done that to work on their speaking skills. Here is a quote from their site:

Quote:
A Toastmasters meeting is a learn-by-doing workshop in which participants hone their speaking and leadership skills in a no-pressure atmosphere.


here's the link...

http://www.toastmasters.org/

Hope this is helpful to someone.
Davidzajac
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Davidzajac
I think that anyone can do anything. With that being said I performed today. It went good. I performed a trick while waiting for my car repair. she was very responsive and I'd say she enjoyed it. I set up an out and it was really free flowing. I had a script which I stuck to strictly. Bob, is it bad that I knew everything to say in my head? In the spirit of being helpful. Yes you are very helpful. I called a local assembly last week when I was planning all this.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12590 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Not sure what you mean by "anyone can do anything."

That may be, but it doesn't mean they can do it well.
sandsjr
View Profile
Special user
837 Posts

Profile of sandsjr
Quote:
On Aug 2, 2014, Davidzajac wrote:
I called a local assembly last week when I was planning all this.


Are you talking about Toastmasters?
Davidzajac
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Davidzajac
That's true. Yes toastmasters.
sandsjr
View Profile
Special user
837 Posts

Profile of sandsjr
Great. Good for you David!

Perform as much as you possibly can for people you don't know. It gets easier every time you do it. Continue to think about what it is you want to say and more importantly WHY you are saying it as you work on your effects and develop your scripts. Don't forget... guys who take this seriously can spend weeks on a single effect before they go out and perform it. No need to rush.

I recommend you pick yourself up a copy of Maximum Entertainment and apply all of the great stuff you find there. That's a book you'll want to keep reviewing for the rest of your life. It's like having a golf coach if you're a professional golfer.

Keep up the good work!
Davidzajac
View Profile
New user
63 Posts

Profile of Davidzajac
Cool. I Take it seriously. Performed all day and cant wait for more opportunities.
sandsjr
View Profile
Special user
837 Posts

Profile of sandsjr
Good man.
Suffolk
View Profile
Elite user
402 Posts

Profile of Suffolk
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 1, 2014, Engali wrote:

That's unfortunate because it suggests that you have an entity theory mindset about performance skills; you don't think most people can develop into performers? In your view, would you say "some people have it and some people just don't?" Do you feel like "natural talent" should dictate who goes into what profession or even hobby?



Yes, that's exactly what I think. Except for the hobby part. What's unfortunate is the trivialization of the art that has resulted from the erroneous belief that anyone can do mentalism. And, unfortunately, they often do.


Largely because I don't like them, I have attended exactly five mentalism conventions in the 20 years or so I have been interested in mentalism, four of them since becoming a full time professional. I would estimate that circa 60% of the people who attended (and 10% of those lecturing!) those conventions do not have what it takes to perform for paying audiences. I see no harm in them enjoying it as hobby.

I think it's worth saying that that I didn't realise that at the first one I attended and only had the perspective to see it about three years into this being my job.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12590 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
I keep bringing up Sturgeon's Law. But it remains applicable.
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
2876 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Suffolk,

I think your percentages sound rather generous! I think very few mentalists indeed have an actual talent for mentalism.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Corinda (16 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.19 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL