Hmmm. Good point. Your act is quite unique. No one could copy it with any success. Thirty years. That, my friend, is what I call success! I cannot hold a candle to you. I wouldn't even try. My goal is to develop a unique act like you did. I'm 58, so it won't last thirty years! LOL!

Doug



That is really the best advice. Routines, I have no problem with. Books...YES! I have plenty. Good stuff too. Nothing exposed or YouTubed! LOL! Yeah, I know just the book. Oh, and no, I would never call an effect by its trade name! Never!

It took me quite a long time to master the Dye Tube and Multiplying Billiard Balls. I guard those diligently. However, harping about it here is pointless. Back on topic...

Yeah. I see now. This wasn't so much exposure by P & T, as it was a parody. I see that now.

Doug

"The day we learned that The Sun doesn't go around the Earth,
The sunset was still beautiful." anon

But the sunset's beauty does not involve fooling you. You could argue that people don't like being fooled, but if that is true why are we doing magic?

At the very least, Penn and Teller come up with more innovative ways to perform these tricks, unlike people like the masked magician who claimed to expose to encourage innovation which was complete BS

Well that thread was quite interesting read. I personally don't have any problem with P & T's "exposure". Besides cups and balls I don't even remember seeing much actual exposure from them. Masked magician who's brought up here as well, I did quite like the show. However I would agree it went too far, but I still enjoyed watching it.

I remember seeing trick called one handed pass or something like that where as part of presentation you would expose the pass. I wouldn't personally have problem with someone doing that, but I'd imagine some people here would. Something I've noticed myself though is that younger people generally are less worried about exposure and less obsessed about secrets. That doesn't mean necessarily that they run around exposing tricks to left and right for sake of exposing, but for example a year ago when I started getting into magic and went to visit local magic circle's meeting where anyone can join. When there was time to freely discuss and chill at the end of it I found some differences between older and younger guys.

Firstly younger guys were a bit more flexible. So older guys often had effect that THEY wanted to show where with younger guys it was often that I could throw out concept(for example, "you know any of those tricks where card just visually changes to another?") and then one younger guys would perform something that uses that concept, so basically they would perform what I wanted to see, which was really cool. But more importantly older guys often only wanted to show effect and leave it at that where as chatting with younger guys it was different. For both I told that I was interested of learning obviously. Thing is younger guys would show me effect that I wanted to see normally, but then also were often open to teach it to me. Show how it's done, explain, let me try, give feedback etc.

Now that I know everyone much better, a lot of the older guys are great and I don't want to say that's case everywhere. But that was my experience and I have to say that I wonder if I'd came back without the younger guys.

I have to jump on Zach's: "But the sunset's beauty does not involve fooling you. You could argue that people don't like being fooled, but if that is true why are we doing magic?"

Firstly magic's beauty doesn't necessarily need to rely on fooling. And I don't know about you, but I don't do magic to fool people. I do it because I think it can be done in a way that it's beautiful to watch. I know some people who do it because it can be done in a way that's funny.

In fact when I look for routine to practice my number one thing in a checklist is "It has to be worth watching even if you know exactly how it's done.". If it relies on fooling someone, then I'm not interested, because I have to enjoy practicing it and I will know the secret. All of my favorite routine's I know to some extent how those are done. Not to every single move, but even if I would it wouldn't lessen the value for me in any way. I think the whole idea of fooling is a big problem to begin with, that's biggest problem when I think audience is that they often have this assumption that they need to look for secret. So Lunatik, if I ever become good enough and would come to where you are and perform, I'd honestly love your idea. I kind of doubt you'd actually do it, but I would absolutely love it. For now it wouldn't make any difference since I've only performed to magicians mostly.

If I would be good enough to do card manipulation routine, I'd have no problem of you having word with audience and exposing the methods(I'd suspect some people here would as well as you would probably feel a bit contradicted) I think it would be good set up for the routine. I would just see it as "let's get this need to know how it's done out of the way so then you(audience) don't have to worry about it anymore.". I would even know pretty much what kind of patter I would have pre performance after your talk with audience. Only problem is card manipulation is not exactly one of those things you buy and then week later you can perform. I'll see you in 10 years though, remind me!

Exposure hitches a ride on magical performance. Many of our forefathers were famous for "exposure", showing the ways of mediums, later tk, and other such trickery. My girlfriend hates that I am fond of cold reading, and thinks it's the work of cults and exploitation. In the "honest liar" documentary, magicians loose their power to exploit when they admit they are magicians.
I do think P&T show much just so they can have something new to show. If they lived forever, they would probably show everything. I love their BS videos, and have seen their show in Vegas multiple times. Sometimes it seems like misdirection when they claim to expose to keep people from being taken advantage of, then expose some method that is non related to a scam.
I think it's interesting that people get so upset about secrets, then don't mind if it sells for five or ten dollars. I guess it all adds up, but as we rarely have the time or opportunity to apprentice under a master, I think the best secrets are the ones we learn for ourselves in how to direct a crowds attention, get great reactions thru timing and guts, and the pleasure we get when someone later remembers a trick we preformed (accurately or not).
Many people "know" that I don't actually put the coin in the other hand. Along the way, someone exposed the method. I still preform with all my conviction, story , and skill. I still get it by, and they still give the reactions I love. That's what I value.

Very well said Charles. Moves are just moves. Obviously it's not in our interest to reveal all the moves to public, but if someone knows doublelift, SO WHAT? Doesn't stop us from using it. Knowing a move doesn't mean you then will be able to bust every trick that uses it. Hell I've been fooled by tricks that use moves that I know every single one of.

I remember in other thread someone telling about a kid who could do pass when this person was burning that kid's hands and he could not see cards move. Now there are some particular effects, 2 card monte for example that I think do lose value if you know the secret. But a lot of things don't. This discussion actually gave me idea for a "game" to play with magicians, which would basically be "Show me something, but only using moves/sleights that you know I know.", it's just one of those silly little things. Like I had idea of playing spot the DL with friend once after card jam. So basically you and the other guy both have deck, you turn card and other guy has to say within 3 seconds either "DL" or "Clean" and if he is correct he gets point, if he's wrong you get point, then he turns a card and it's your turn and so on and so forth until certain amount of points etc.