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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magic names and the media » » P & T's "Fool us", fools no one! They did it again! (31 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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lunatik
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Maybe we all should create a YouTube channel exposing the latest and greatest effects that we currently own! That will further our craft by forcing creators to be more innovative!

I don't get the idiots that think exposing methods are making our craft better. If you really do think it does, please give me 5 minutes to speak to you spectators about some various methods we use. I promise your impact will lessen and will make it to where they are wanting to catch your 'move' rather than be entertained. If you think not, please let me know the next time your'e in Colorado and I'd be happy to contribute to this experiment. And yes, this would be temporarily exposing things. We should record it too for further analysis!
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
Dave Le Fevre
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Quote:
On Aug 11, 2014, cheesewrestler wrote:
he's rolling up his sleeves because approximately 100% of non-magician spectators have a vague idea that "It's up his sleeve!" explains every possible magic effect.

Very true. I've had spectators comment "and you even had your sleeves rolled up!", regarding effects in which sleeving would have been completely irrelevant.

So I roll my sleeves up, it makes them happy, and their reaction to the lack of sleeving makes me smile.

Dave
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magicwatcher2005
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Simply put, anyone who thinks the Penn & Teller "exposure" of Sawing a Lady in Half in any way diminished a GOOD performance of the real thing is over reacting. Here is a skillful performance of the routine, using a properly made prop:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Nr_7Z1mWPY

An audience could watch [only] the "exposure" part of P&T's act, and then watch the above performance and still be completely fooled and amazed. In fact, the P&T prop [and "exposure" sequence] would actually be a great lead-in to the Ferguson/Alonzo performance - much the way P&T did it. You know, "this is how the hacks do it, but now you get to see what REAL magic looks like"...

.
lunatik
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You don't get it, skillful or not, the audience will think that they already know how it's done due to getting what they consider the 'solution' to the now 'puzzle'. Why take the magic out it, why make it a puzzle? Why expose one of the inner workings? Why have them whisper to their neighbor the workings only to diminish the performance in that persons eyes? Why why why? I haven't read one good argument for exposure, all have been excuses. Please take my offer above, I'd be happy to oblige Smile
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Montana76
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Penn and Teller has done more for magic than most here can dream of doing in a lifetime of trying. As previously mentioned: "we are guarding an empty safe". The magic is in the way we perform it; not the secret.

I know how David Copperfield flies. But not _how_. And I think it is mindblowing.

And people getting upset about ID exposure should pick up their Tarbell and find more material! It's presumptious to think you can rely on ONE gimmick for so many years...
lunatik
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And it's presumptuous to think that one should have to give up a staple in ones repertoire due to someone's selfishness. Please please please let me talk to your spectators before your next performance, it'll elevate everything!

And you don't mind your specs knowing the secret of your effects? That has to be one of the most idiotic statements I've read in the past few years....
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Montana76
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That is not what I am talking about. Please do not misunderstand me on purpose.
magicwatcher2005
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Quote:
On Aug 11, 2014, lunatik wrote:
You don't get it, skillful or not, the audience will think that they already know how it's done due to getting what they consider the 'solution' to the now 'puzzle'. Why take the magic out it, why make it a puzzle? Why expose one of the inner workings? Why have them whisper to their neighbor the workings only to diminish the performance in that persons eyes? [...]


You're the one who doesn't get it. The supposed method P and T "exposed" for Sawing in Half hasn't been used by magicians for almost a century! AND that "method" has been exposed so many times it's considered a joke by virtually all knowledgeable magicians - which may explain why SOME still think it's exposure.

Having them "whisper to their neighbor the workings" can only embarrass that all-knowing audience member when, a few seconds later, the magician cleanly separates the two halves. Even if a viewer paid VERY close attention to P and T's "exposure" of how the "other guys do it" that viewer's "understanding" would be shattered when what he thinks is the secret method is instantly debunked in his face.

The only "exposure" you can legitimately whine about is P and T using the phrase "wedge base" and their explaining what that is in the most vague terms possible. But what they show is NOT a true wedge base, and every decent thin model sawing has a wedge that is virtually undetectable - unlike that massive hunk of junk P and T INTENTIONALLY showed to be completely obvious (and not at all deceptive).

The P and T routine was actually far less genuine exposure than virtually EVERY version of "Backstage With a Magician" ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7BMrHkV5fM ). Even Bill Malone commenting that he tried to get his finger into a deck [of cards] on top of a spectator's selection is more "exposure" than the P and T sawing.

The P and T routine was clever, funny, and ultimately presented an illusion that left the audience with no clue how it was done. They discredit various "methods" that other magicians supposedly use, but those methods are SO obvious the audience would have to be stupid to be fooled by them.

However, it's quite clear that you desperately want to - perhaps even NEED to - rail against them for the mere hint of supposed "secret" methods. Before you waste more of your time doing that, I'd like to direct your energy toward some REAL exposure - and this guy actually DOES expose methods currently used by thousands of magicians around the globe. I refer, of course, to Michael Ammar, with his scandalous and harmful "Shadow Coins":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdYWuhdUvwo

In that highly unethical routine, Ammar exposes fake coins, trapdoors, coins with rubber bands, coin gimmicks, mirrors, use of extra coins, sticky stuff, mechanical holdouts, and sleeving.

So quit wasting your time on Penn and Teller; go after the REAL villain of exposure - Michal Ammar!


.
lunatik
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How can you rail against him? He's doing exactly what p and t is. No one has given 1 good reason to expose a secret...
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
magicwatcher2005
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On Aug 12, 2014, lunatik wrote:
How can you rail against him? He's doing exactly what p and t is. No one has given 1 good reason to expose a secret...


At this point I can only hope you're being intentionally obtuse because you finally realize you're wrong. Neither Penn and Teller NOR Michael Ammar are "exposing" anything. Whatever exposure you think is occurring exists only in your mind.

.
lunatik
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And neither was the masked magician, eh ?

At what point do you draw the line? And when can I crash one of your performances? Oh wait, THAT'S DIFFERENT!
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
magicwatcher2005
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Quote:
On Aug 12, 2014, lunatik wrote:
And neither was the masked magician, eh ?



To quote another poster who also had enough of your lunacy: "That is not what I am talking about. [b]Please do not misunderstand me on purpose[/i].

Here, I'll give you a chance to fully defend your specious argument. Please explain exactly what magic principle you think Penn and Teller have exposed with their sawing routine, and please post some links to videos of professional (or amateur) magicians preforming illusions based on that exposed principle.

If you can find ANYONE within the last 3 decades performing an illusion that depends on the principles you claim they've exposed then maybe - that's a BIG maybe - you have a valid point.

I'll wait here.

.
MeetMagicMike
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Magicwatcher2005. You are explaining this well but as you suggest lunatik seems to be intentionally misunderstanding and/or misrepresenting our position.

Lunatik - Do you really see things in only black and white? Do you not see any nuance at all? We are not condoning exposure for the sake of exposure (ie The Masked Magician and your offer of explaining secrets before a magic show).

Are you a performer? I'm not saying you have to be a performer to have an opinion but if you are a performer I wonder if you have really scoured all of your performances of the hint of any and everything that some tyro may consider his big secret?

You don't do any sucker tricks? You never lead the audience down the garden path only to fool them even worse? I doubt there is a single performing magician who doesn't use his judgement and use what the audience thinks they know to trip them up. Copperfield did it, Blaine, Paul Daniels. In each case their judgement may differ from yours and mine.

I'm not saying it's always a good thing. Some people go too far. Penn and Teller push the boundaries but in this case I don't think they stepped over it. You may but please don't act like it's black and white.

How many laypeople know what Penn meant when he referred to a wedge? That's really something he stuck in there to get a reaction out of magicians and it worked.
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lunatik
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Magicwalker, why expose anything to begin with? Are you so shallow that you can't see what you're supporting? Some peoples children..

And mike, in this case, I do see black and white. There is no purpose in exposing methods, not one good example has been shown
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magicwatcher2005
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2014, lunatik wrote:
Magicwalker, why expose anything to begin with? Are you so shallow that you can't see what you're supporting? Some peoples children..
...


Why "expose" anything? Clearly you know next to nothing about theatrical presentation, or for that matter not even much about magic as a performing art. Virtually ANY sort of "proving" that is done in performance could be proclaimed (by a guy with your mentality) to be "exposure".

For example, when a magician bangs his hand on a big sheet metal blade while performing Harbin's Zig Zag he's proving the blade is not faked with n secret door. However, some versions of Mismade Girl actually DO use such a gaffed blade - so by your rationale he's "exposing" gaffed blades with secret doors in them.

Or when a card man seems to cleanly insert a spectator's selection into the middle of the deck (claiming it is now lost) but then goes on to show that the card is not on (or near) the bottom or top of the deck, he's "exposing" that some magicians might secretly move the card to one of those locations (again, by your distorted thinking).

Embracing with your argument further, when any magician says, "Please examine this [whatever] to make sure there are no wires, mirrors, trapdoors, or hidden assistants - as HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of magicians have said, and will continue to say - he's "exposing" wires, mirrors, trapdoors, and hidden assistants. Oh, the horror!

In essence you're saying that anything a magician does to prove he is NOT using a particular method [the audience might otherwise suspect] is a form of "exposure". I can't imagine a more asinine position to take, but it seems pretty clear that's what you're saying. Otherwise you'd answer my very simple question: What viable magic principle do you think Penn and Teller have exposed with their sawing routine? And you would be able to post some links to videos of professional (or amateur) magicians preforming illusions based on that exposed principle.

But you can't answer that question, and you can't find those videos because in the final analysis Penn and Teller aren't really exposing ANYTHING. They're simply "proving" to the audience they aren't using methods that the audience might otherwise possibly suspect on their own. Virtually ALL magicians have been doing some form of this proving forever, and as I stated earlier this entire "outrage" directed toward P and T is much ado about nothing.

.
lunatik
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All I'm hearing from you is a bunch of yip yap. P&T have been a big source of controversy over the years with their exposure vids. You're on the wrong side of history, plain and simple. Where does one draw the line? Where do YOU draw the line?
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
MeetMagicMike
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Lunatic, you may be only hearing yip yap but magicwatcher2005 is putting down some very cogent arguments. Clearly they aren't getting through. A few posts ago he SARCASTICALLY scolded Michael Ammar but you responded as if he was serious.
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magicwatcher2005
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Mike - I'm done with this guy. He seems to love arguing, but is apparently incapable of grasping simple, clear logic. He's willing to attack the opinions of others, but when challenged will not defend his own. Not long ago I read someone else write that "you can educate ignorance, but you can't educate stupid." How true that turns out to be.
lunatik
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Watcher, it seems that you and Mike are the ones without clear logic. There is absolutely no reason for what P&T does on a normal basis, plenty others agree with me. I can only hope and pray to see either one of you performing, I'll be happy to do share some secrets with your audience, by y'all's logic, it'll REALLY enhance your performance and reactions will be over the top!!

As for Ammar, I didn't google him for any exposure videos, maybe they're there, maybe not. But please, the examples given have been pathetic, a 2 yr old could have given better ones.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
magicwatcher2005
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Quote:
On Aug 13, 2014, lunatik wrote:
[...] But please, the examples given have been pathetic, a 2 yr old could have given better ones.


Well here's a perfect opportunity for you to prove to all of us that your intellect is superior to "a 2 yr old".

You say that the Penn & Teller "Sawing in Half" routine constitutes exposure. I've asked before but I'll ask again: please explain in detail that even "a 2 r old" could understand what magic secrets or techniques they are exposing with that routine. You insist they are, so convince us.

.
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