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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magic names and the media » » P & T's "Fool us", fools no one! They did it again! (31 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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sean_mh
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Heaven forbid if anyone talking here reads "Hiding the Elephant". What horror that will be! Smile

Sean
Dave Le Fevre
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Exposure in a book that almost no laymen will read - d'you really think that that can be compared with exposure on prime time TV?

Dave
The Ozzy Osbourne of the 34x27
sean_mh
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Well no but I was just being a bit cheeky. Lol

And anyway since modern day large scale illusions are always evolving I
would imagine it's rare that how its being done is "how the audience thinks it's being done" anyway.

Sean
Ado
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I was watching a few videos of Luis Piedrahita, and quite a few time, he exposed (on national TV) some very good tricks... I have no idea why he did that...

P!
lunatik
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Why even give them an actual working method to begin with? So if a new method comes out for an illusion, is it ok if some spills the beans on all of the other methods? Using the logic on this thread, it would seem justified.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
Jonathan Townsend
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Has anyone here tested the say-then-surprise retention of information?

that's a visceral moment just a few seconds after the mention of "wedge base". Aversion?
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Galileo
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Quote:
On Aug 10, 2014, MeetMagicMike wrote:
This looks like well motivated exposure to me. Magician's often make this kind of call. In Paul Daniel's ring routine he says "Magic shops sell a set of rings where one of them has a gap, but these are professional rings with no gap". Almost any one doing ambitious card will show that the card isn't "already on top". Magician's doing a levitation pass a hoop over the girl to show that there are no wires. Etc Etc.


I think Mike really nailed it on the head, P&T and Paul Daniels are both magicians that really added to the art an helped cultivate it to what it is today and is a calculated decision they made to reveal ONE method of sawing someone in half.
MKoeppel
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Exposure: the revelation of something secret, especially something embarrassing or damaging.
(Google definition)

Googling "saw woman in half trick" will bring up as top result:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sawing_a_woman_in_half

If it is on wikipedia, it is no longer secret. Without secret, there is no exposure.

Case closed.

Best, markus
lunatik
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So by that logic, if someone posts on Wikipedia how some of the latest and greatest effects work, it's public knowledge and no longer exposure? Your standard has a bunch of holes in it.

Case closed.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
Galileo
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Yeah I have to agree with lunatik on that one (even if he is!) just because a trick is out there on the web already doesn't mean you should make sure EVERYONE knows how it is done.
magicwatcher2005
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Quote:
On Aug 18, 2014, lunatik wrote:
[...]

Case closed.


And there - right there - is why any discussion with you is a complete waste of time - your complete inability to consider anyone's viewpoint that differs with your own.

.
Mad0hatter
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Quote:
On Aug 10, 2014, TSW wrote:
I like the show. I don't like the exposure.

If we're guarding an empty safe, why does Steinmeyer both to patent his illusions? Answer; because the secret has value. It's the same with P & T. They make money from the secret and in this case exposing an element of the secret. If they safe is empty, why did Teller litigate and win the case against Gerard Bakardy for the creation rights to his rose and shadow illusion? Answer; because it has value. If secrets have no value, why aren't illusion plans sold for the price of the printing plus a reasonable profit margin.

Why, after you buy the trick can't you return it to the dealer if doesn't fit your style. Answer; because you're also buying the secret.

The "empty safe" analogy works for those who have already removed their money from the safe!


I just wanted to point out that what Teller litigated over was not the secret of the illusion, which he says has changed several times, but over the copyright of the playlet which he performers around the secret. Where Gerard f-ed up was not trying to sell the secret of making things fall off a rose bush but by trying to sell Tellers act.

When it comes to exposure I don't feel there's any hard proof that exposure has any effect on the performing magician. Obviously there's no hard proof for the other side either. But what the other side does have is what my college teachers would call "anecdotal evidence" and I think the best example come from a book about Harry Blackstone Sr. Back in that day there was a ad campaign where a cigarette company printed all these posters exposing popular magic effects of the day. The campaign was a huge failure and and Blackstone got all the unused posters on the cheap. He would put them up on the front of the theater with the promised of performing those effects in side and then he did just that.
lunatik
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Quote:
On Aug 18, 2014, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 18, 2014, lunatik wrote:
[...]

Case closed.


And there - right there - is why any discussion with you is a complete waste of time - your complete inability to consider anyone's viewpoint that differs with your own.

.


I was just quoting MKoeppel. It looks like you may have jumped to an incorrect conclusion once again. It also looks like you didn't address MKoeppel, could it be due to him being on your side?
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
lunatik
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@MadoHatter

What about restaurant performers that have reported that after performing an effect, someone at table whips out there smartphone and finds a YouTube video exposing the method? It not only ruins the effect for everyone else, but changes the mood/vibe at the table....completely unnecessary! Magicwatcher2005 still hasn't taken me up on my offer, I'm thinking it's because when the rubber hits the road, he truly doesn't want his effects to be exposed. He knows the ramifications but is content being an armchair quarterback.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
MKoeppel
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If you start to enter a term in Google (i.e. "saw woman in half"), which gets auto completed after 7 characters and then the first reference that pops-up is a wikipedia article and not just some strange magic related web-site, then yes, I believe that this knowledge is public. It simply is no longer a secret. There is nothing to expose.

BTW: In this case, the so called exposure is not something that is related to the internet. I remember first reading this same "explanation" in a youth magazine, when I was about 10 (which was before the www was even invented). So this method does definitely not qualify as "latest and greatest".
lunatik
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Why limit it to wiki? Why not YouTube? Is it still not public knowledge according to your standards?
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
magicwatcher2005
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Quote:
On Aug 19, 2014, lunatik wrote:


I was just quoting MKoeppel. It looks like you may have jumped to an incorrect conclusion once again.


Quotes are generally enclosed in quote blocks - see, above, how that works?

In cases where a quote is used within a poster's statement without a quote block the alternate way to denote it as a quote is the standard form of enclosing it within quotation marks. Those look like this: "(text)"

Failure on your part to understand and display a "quote" in the long-established manner that a reader - ANY reader - will recognize as such does not equal an "incorrect conclusion" on my part. You're not very skilled at writing, that much is clear. However, these are universal practices that most learn before they are out of grade school.

.
magicwatcher2005
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Quote:
On Aug 19, 2014, lunatik wrote:
[...]Magicwatcher2005 still hasn't taken me up on my offer, [...]


You mean your ridiculous fantasy "offer" to attend a performance of mine and interrupt it by explaining to my audience in real time how each effect was done... even though that is a stupid, stupid "argument" that has absolutely nothing to do with Penn and Teller OR the subject of this particular thread?

Okay, I accept your offer. If you are able to find me, show up at one of my performances, and then follow through with your threat... please do. I or a member of the house staff deal with that highly unlikely event at that time - should it ever occur.

But just in case, bring your health card. The security crew at my main venue has been known to be a little heavy handed at times...

.
Mad0hatter
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Quote:
On Aug 19, 2014, lunatik wrote:
@MadoHatter

What about restaurant performers that have reported that after performing an effect, someone at table whips out there smartphone and finds a YouTube video exposing the method? It not only ruins the effect for everyone else, but changes the mood/vibe at the table....completely unnecessary! Magicwatcher2005 still hasn't taken me up on my offer, I'm thinking it's because when the rubber hits the road, he truly doesn't want his effects to be exposed. He knows the ramifications but is content being an armchair quarterback.

Those are what you call poor performers, they were unable to engage the audience allowing the minds to wander. I would add that they probably did not take the time to get their hostages on their side before whipping out their pack of cards. Also if you are performing an effect so strait forwardly that simply putting it's description it to google finds the real method you should look into to how you present that.
lunatik
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Quote:
On Aug 19, 2014, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 19, 2014, lunatik wrote:
[...]Magicwatcher2005 still hasn't taken me up on my offer, [...]


You mean your ridiculous fantasy "offer" to attend a performance of mine and interrupt it by explaining to my audience in real time how each effect was done... even though that is a stupid, stupid "argument" that has absolutely nothing to do with Penn and Teller OR the subject of this particular thread?

Okay, I accept your offer. If you are able to find me, show up at one of my performances, and then follow through with your threat... please do. I or a member of the house staff deal with that highly unlikely event at that time - should it ever occur.

But just in case, bring your health card. The security crew at my main venue has been known to be a little heavy handed at times...

.


Oh, I wouldn't interrupt your show, I'd just be outside the venue exposing some of your effects, before and after the show. Maybe even provide a DVD so they can take the explanations home. This will allow you to integrate some exposure in your show so that you can employ a totally new method to trick them! Then after let's say 8 months, I'd be back to show them that method so you could then learn a completely new one, hence always one step ahead of them! This is going to make your show SOOO much better, you'll thank me later and maybe cut me a percentage of the profits!

As for your heavy handed security, HILARIOUS!
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magic names and the media » » P & T's "Fool us", fools no one! They did it again! (31 Likes)
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