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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Magic names and the media » » P & T's "Fool us", fools no one! They did it again! (31 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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MeetMagicMike
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Silvercup wrote:

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It's becoming a clear fact that magicians prefer video to books to learn simply because they are unable to read. How this forum persists confuses me daily.


Most of us have probably been guilty of glossing over a post and thinking we knew what the poster was saying and getting it a bit wrong.

There are actually several conversations going on in this thread. It's always a good idea to quote the relevant thing you are responding too. No only does it make things clearer but it makes it really obvious whether you are actually addressing the points brought up or not.
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ZachDavenport
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Quote:
On Aug 25, 2014, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 25, 2014, ZachDavenport wrote:
I'm sorry, but their opinion on YouTube exposure, and their ability to perform magic well are 2 different things entirely. If your opinion is that those who think YouTube exposure is wrong are clearly bad magicians, then you think that many well respected magicians and mentalists are terrible magicians.


Not what I said, and not at all what I meant. If, after reading what I wrote, you conclude that my opinion is "those who think YouTube exposure is wrong are clearly bad magicians" then you need put a lot more work into your reading comprehension skills.

.

OK I reread the post, and I see that you said that they are bad magicians because they think the Penn and Teller thing was wrong. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, but it still is a little irrational for you to say that because they think it is wrong they are bad magicians. Even if they are (and I have never seen either of them perform, so I have no idea) you should not call people bad magicians, unless you have seen them perform and can offer them some suggestions.
Reality is a real killjoy.
lunatik
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Quote:
On Aug 24, 2014, magicwatcher2005 wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 23, 2014, TSW wrote:
Why would magicwatcher2005 have stage security deal with lunatik if he showed up outside magicwatcher2005's performance venue? Because exposure would ruin magicwatcher2005's show.

[...]


I don't know if you're obtuse, or just overly argumentative like lunatik (who certainly lives up to his mis-spelled name). ANY venue would eject some jerk-off who was outside approaching customers as they entered or left. It has nothing to do with exposure - especially in my case, since I perform fully scripted routines, rather than the latest Youtube-level card tricks lunatik is so concerned about. So some mentally-challenged guy standing outside my performance venue offering to "expose" my "tricks" would have the exact same impact as standing outside a theatrical performance of Peter Pan shouting "Hey everybody, that little guy can't really fly! They have super-thin wires that hold him up!"

My response to lunatik (and you, TSW) is that I am not even remotely afraid of his fantasy "threat" of standing outside one of my performances and exposing my "secrets", because the audience already knows my biggest "secret" - I'm entertaining and funny, and they laughed their axes off. So what's lunatik gonna tell them, "The goose is just a puppet and he can't really write with his beak - the guy holding him was secretly doing the writing!"?... or "He secretly loaded that signed bill into the lemon when you weren't looking!"? Oh my god, the horror of it all!

BUT - and this is more for lunatik than you - I hereby challenge him to follow through with this "threat" for ANY performer, at ANY venue ANYWHERE - and have a friend video it for Youtube. He won't, because even though he claims he would he hasn't got the guts. But he certainly can prove me wrong with some simple video.

Most importantly, as others have already explained, Penn and Teller didn't "expose" anything with their Sawing routine that ANY decent magician would think needs "protecting". which I guess explains why the two of you are so concerned.

.


Visit colorado and I'd be happy to oblige. But if you're just a kids performer with a Barney puppet, I may let you slide by.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
lunatik
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Quote:
On Aug 24, 2014, Dougini wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 19, 2014, Mad0hatter wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 19, 2014, lunatik wrote:
@MadoHatter

What about restaurant performers that have reported that after performing an effect, someone at table whips out there smartphone and finds a YouTube video exposing the method?


Those are what you call poor performers, they were unable to engage the audience allowing the minds to wander.


Well. I must be a poor performer. That happened to me, a NUMBER of times! I must be an old hack now. Maybe it's time to give it up...

Doug


Magicwatcher, what do you say to doug here, is he just a poor performer? or has he found audience members that are just plain curious and were able to youtube the secret which was out of his control? Surely you can't insinuate that every person that googles/youtubes an explanation had a poor performer.
"Don't let your Dreams become Fantasies"
MeetMagicMike
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I know that questions is directed at Magicwatcher but let just point out that Dougini doesn't actually say how he handled the situation. Did it really ruin his set? Most magician's perform routines with multiple phases that cancel each other out.

Even before the internet I ran into people who knew the double lift but I still did ambitious card for them and got the usual reaction from the crowd because the double lift was only a small part of the routine.

When I was somewhat new into magic I was completely fooled by Daryl doing his rope routine even though I knew Profs Nightmare. He did the same counting move I did but had better technique and it totally fooled me.
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tomsk192
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I saw P&T live, recently, and have a few thoughts on the matter.

Firstly, there is a huge amount of disrespect being thrown at two fine magicians who think profoundly about how they approach magic. It has been said that what separates craft from art is not relative skill, but rather the leap of imagination. Here are two superb performers, P&T, who certainly do magic as art. And here, some deeply unimaginative people are slagging them off, without addressing any of the straightforward rebuttals which have been clearly outlined over four pages.

Penn & Teller exemplify the approach as outlined in 'Our Magic', a book by two hugely successful magicians of an earlier generation. This book, incidentally, was intended for the general public's consumption. It makes the point that the more audiences are informed of the sorts of ruses magicians use, the more engaged and impressed they are when those ruses are successfully carried out in a theatrically pleasing way.

To wit, in the show I saw, P&T did a really lovely piece, (which would enrage some here beyond all reason,) where Teller essentially does a manipulation act to music. This is repeated, with Penn giving commentary as Teller turns to expose the angles. [Don't die on me now, lunatik, you'll get over it.] Then Teller does it again, from the right angle, and there is an unexpected ending which is not explained.

Now, Jonathan Townsend was trying to tease out an important point earlier in this thread, relating to the comparative difficulty of retaining information after a surprise, which works in this instance. Also, as in their 'exposed' Cups and Balls, there is actually a layer of obfuscation being spread during the rather confusing commentary. There is simply too much to see, for a layman, to remember exactly the choreography after the fact. Add to that the surprise ending, which is not explained, and the whole thing works as artful magic. Not only that, but the audience has been educated as to the sheer complexity of genuine sleight of hand manipulation. I work on sleight of hand a lot, and yet a good, well choreographed manipulation act can fool me in a pleasing way, because the methods have been well executed, and the routine so structured, that my attention has always been directed to the right place at the right time.

Anyway, I find great irony in two wonderful entertainers being slated and mocked for being 'disrespectful'. I know who I respect, in this instance.
Dougini
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Quote:
On Aug 25, 2014, MeetMagicMike wrote:
...Dougini doesn't actually say how he handled the situation. Did it really ruin his set?


Yeah. This last time, I just left. The friend who invited me over, had a place full of people. His roommate decided to fire up the big 60" screen and pull up Youtube. There was the masked moron exposing two of my effects I just did. The laughter shrunk me. I kept my composure, thanked everyone and left.

I will NEVER do magic for them again. EVER! It was MOST humiliating! I am not a pro today. I just have fun. After forty years of this, I am pretty good at some things. I'm 58, and have NO tolerance for rudeness or this kind of bull****. It was done to embarrass me. The roommate is an egomaniac. Has to be the guy "on top". You'll run into this type eventually.

And THIS guy has an extensive knowledge of magic principles. You ain't gettin' ANYTHING by this guy...So, the best solution is to leave...

Doug
MeetMagicMike
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Dougini - that was awful behavior by your "friend". It is an argument against the type of exposure for the sake of exposure that I and MagicWatcher2005 have both denounced.

I probably would have left too but I kind of wonder if there might have been a better way to handle it. What if you laughed right along with them and talked openly about what magic is and is not and how technology has affected modern magicians? The internet isn't a fad so we magician's had better learn to be entertaining in a world with Google.

As a matter of fact we might all benefit from asking ourselves how Penn and Teller would have handled that very situation. In a way they already did this with their see through cups and balls.

Tomsk192 - +++ Great post. Thanks for your thoughts and insight.
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tomsk192
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Thank you, MeetMagicMike and magicwatcher2005, for offering cogent, well thought out arguments and for not resorting to silliness. I didn't need to address the key points because you have both done that admirably.
lunatik
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:

This is repeated, with Penn giving commentary as Teller turns to expose the angles. [Don't die on me now, lunatik, you'll get over it.]


*croaks*
Smile
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tomsk192
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Smile
Tim Cavendish
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, lunatik wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, tomsk192 wrote:

This is repeated, with Penn giving commentary as Teller turns to expose the angles. [Don't die on me now, lunatik, you'll get over it.]


*croaks*
Smile

Link for any who haven't seen the routine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G30vNCmMP1k

Art.

And a lesson in magic appreciation.
Slim King
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Penn and Teller are sell outs in the true meaning of the words. Defend them if you want, but they have cashed in on magic secrets not their own. They have exposed things they do not own. People are not as stupid as you say they are. They see and remember quite well.
I can totally understand getting a magic lesson after you've shelled out $100 to see Penn and Teller ... Giving it away for free on Youtube is just not right ... and everyone here knows it!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
tomsk192
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Read it and weep, Slim, you just got Roshambo'd...
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Doug, what happened to you was disgraceful. It shouldn't have happened.

You spend huge amounts of time and large sums of money perfecting your conjuring, in order that you can entertain and delight others. And your "friends" ask you to entertain them, and then they treat you like ****.

Friend - a person whom one knows, likes, and trusts. Not in this case.

It's interesting to ponder how they'd have behaving regarding other performing arts. Would they have set out to humiliate you had you been a singer? Or a juggler? Or a guitarist?

Occasionally, one encounters a spectator who treats conjuring as a puzzle, a bar betcha. Their viewpoint is that if they can "solve" it, then they've won, else the conjuror has won. On the infrequent occasions when I find such a spectator, I politely stop performing - I'm here to entertain, not to challenge. But in this instance, they waited until after you'd finished, and then they ruined everything retrospectively. And they did so in front of the whole room. Horrible horrible people.

Dave
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Slim King
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Exposers... They call themselves the bad boys because they do bad things .. They glory in it ... They take pride in selling off what others have kept secret for centuries. I was about a week away from purchasing an item they exposed on TV .... I didn't do it ..everyone lost but P and T ...Shameful!!!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Dougini
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Thank you Dave. You get it. This crowd is twenty-somethings. They're rude to each other! The only friend is the one that rents the place. He was not amused at their antics. It was the roommate's 60" TV, so it was his to turn on. My friend moved, and I never see those people any more. Thank GOD!

Doug
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Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, Dougini wrote:

Yeah. This last time, I just left. The friend who invited me over, had a place full of people. His roommate decided to fire up the big 60" screen and pull up Youtube. There was the masked moron exposing two of my effects I just did. The laughter shrunk me. I kept my composure, thanked everyone and left.



On occasion you can use exposure to your advantage. A week after the first Masked Magician program I had a performance at an office holiday party. Out of curiosity I asked how many people there had seen the show. Only the few children in attendance raised their hands. After admonishing the parents for allowing their children to watch unsupervised television I continued on with my show.

When I pulled my linking rings out. One of the tricks that had been exposed on the Masked Magician show, I saw one of the kids who had raised their hands earlier get really excited and run over to his mother. The Masked Magician had only shown how a three set worked. I was using a set of eight. so naturally I picked the kid to help me with the trick. I immediately linked two rings together and handed them to him to take apart. Naturally he couldn't. But that didn't stop him from spending the rest of the routine looking for the gap that the masked magician had told him was there.

So in the end I wound up fooling him more than I would have had he not seen the show. The perplexed look on his face was priceless and of course now all the revealed secrets on the show became suspect.
"America's Foremost Satirical Magician" -- Jeff McBride.
Slim King
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Good on you Payne ... That's what a pro would do ... But honestly ... You may have gotten really lucky .... right?
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Dougini
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Quote:
On Aug 28, 2014, Payne wrote:
Quote:
On Aug 26, 2014, Dougini wrote:

Yeah. This last time, I just left. The friend who invited me over, had a place full of people. His roommate decided to fire up the big 60" screen and pull up Youtube. There was the masked moron exposing two of my effects I just did. The laughter shrunk me. I kept my composure, thanked everyone and left.



On occasion you can use exposure to your advantage. A week after the first Masked Magician program I had a performance at an office holiday party. Out of curiosity I asked how many people there had seen the show. Only the few children in attendance raised their hands. After admonishing the parents for allowing their children to watch unsupervised television I continued on with my show.

When I pulled my linking rings out. One of the tricks that had been exposed on the Masked Magician show, I saw one of the kids who had raised their hands earlier get really excited and run over to his mother. The Masked Magician had only shown how a three set worked. I was using a set of eight. so naturally I picked the kid to help me with the trick. I immediately linked two rings together and handed them to him to take apart. Naturally he couldn't. But that didn't stop him from spending the rest of the routine looking for the gap that the masked magician had told him was there.

So in the end I wound up fooling him more than I would have had he not seen the show. The perplexed look on his face was priceless and of course now all the revealed secrets on the show became suspect.


Payne you are a pro. No question. But after Prohibition by Charlie Justice was exposed, everything else falls flat. That was my finale at a get-together at the Lani Kai on the beach. The Dye Tube...well, anything I would have shown afterwards...just would have Bill searching it on YouTube/Google. Ya just gotta know your audience. 8 out of the 10 were entertained and would not have done that. Bill's a good guy normally. He's just an egomaniac! He admits that, LOL!

Doug
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