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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » How Can DC Catch Up With Marvel? (21 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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ed rhodes
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Quote:
On Jun 10, 2018, Orville Smith wrote:
Quote:
On Apr 26, 2018, Cliffg37 wrote:
How many of you are or were Saturday morning superhero cartoon fans? In the late 70's or early 80's, we saw the birth of an alarming trend. My guess is that somehow money was behind this; I can't imagine any other reason. The trend was this... Instead of the episode ending with the defeat of the villain and his being jailed, or at least arrested, Now the villain always got away. Rather than being incarcerated, it was good enough for the hero to bust up the antagonists plans. This of course meant that the bad guy was back next week with a new plan.

My problem here is that the kids get a really bad message regarding the point of being good. ie. it doesn't really get you anywhere.

My guess is it was cheaper to hire one voice actor to be the villain all season, than get a series of different actors.


I see your point and your alarm that the villains don't get caught at all. But what I find even more alarming is when the hero himself can get away with felony. Look at Marvel's Punisher. He's a hero but also a one-man lynch-mob who uses lethal bullets. In fact, beginning from his very first appearance, he tried to murder by using lethal bullets and explosives on Spiderman. In the ending of course the Punisher found out that he was wrong about Spiderman, that Spiderman was innocent. Instead of just trying to apprehend a culprit, The Punisher always tries to kill. Compare that with the other heroes who always use Nonlethal methods such as Hawkeye who uses a Stun arrow.


Thing is, "The Punisher" is the last of a 70's trend. The "revenge" hero. It started with The Executioner, a paperback series where a Green Beret's family is murdered by the Mafia and he goes on a killing spree to kill every Mafioso he can get his hands on before they get him. There were a number of these (including one who was sanctified by the Vatican, and who had to go for forgiveness from the Pope after one of his killing sprees.) One; "The Destroyer" got a terrible film; "Remo Williams; The Adventure Begins."

The rest of them are gone, but the Punisher remains.
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." - Rafael Sabatini, Scaramouche
Dannydoyle
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Aren't a lot of superheroes revenge oriented?

I actually enjoyed that film.

But how many felonies does Batman commit in one book? Or Green Arrow or even Hawkeye. Even non lethal arrows are not legal to just shoot at people.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
ed rhodes
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The nature of superheroes is that they are breaking the law as we would understand it.

The thing about The Punisher and his predecessors is that their whole reason for being wasn’t to “stop” criminals, it was specifically to kill as many of them as they can before their luck runs out!
"He was born with the gift of laughter and a sense that the world was mad." - Rafael Sabatini, Scaramouche
Cliffg37
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On a side note, who remembers the 1970's TV show the Mod Squad? They were young-looking cops (I thought all the actors were too old, and the concept was better handled in the 80's with 21 Jump Street) The thing about the Mod Squad was that they were designed to go where cops couldn't. to talk to people who would avoid or run from detectives and uniform police.

This then is the goal of many a costumed hero. To get to crime where, for whatever reason, the police are unable. If they are not doing that by murder, (ie. Batman) many a cop might actually tip a hat to the hero, and at least have a tolerance. On the other hand, the Punisher should be hunted by cops, who really want to see him serve time and off the street. They should see him as an insane serial killer, (which he really is) and probably not care that he targets the scum of society.
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Dannydoyle
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That is definitely a physics teachers idea of what a cop might think.

However it is not how most cops would think at all.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Cliffg37
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Well, Danny, you certainly may be right, and you certainly may know more than I do. I have no issue with that. But do enlighten me as to what a cop would think about this...
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Dannydoyle
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You can start with the concept that a crime is a crime and you don't choose to look the other way. Sort of an oath thing.

Second the idea that they are "unable" would NEVER come up. Testosterone thing.

Not many would be tipping a hat to anyone.

Mind you that when you move into pontificating about real life is where I have to disagree. Comic books are comic books for a reason.

Many would look at vigilantes in any form as in the way plain and simple.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Cliffg37
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OK Danny, Point well taken.
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Orville Smith
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On Jun 30, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
One of the problems with elasticity is it is fairly boring as a power goes.

It also takes some real imagination to make it compelling. One reason I think using it constantly is it would lose some of the thing that is supposed to make it special. Without good writing it can be tricky.

To be fair the writing at Marcel Studio now is done quite well in many instances so that is hopefully a good sign.

Reed always seemed tough to write to me. Not only his powers, but the guy. I always enjoyed the way he used his mind PLUS his powers. An example being wrapping up the Thing and so on. I always thought his greatest asset was his mind, not so much his power.

Either way no doubt a good FF movie would be great.

Maybe the reason you get disappointed at Elasticity is because of how Reed's elasticity was treated in the FF movies. Because the visual effects were so lame when compared with how they are depicted in the comics. If you recall the climax from the first film, the best scenes of elasticity were shown in dim-lighting because it was a night scene. So if you blinked just momentarily,you probably missed where Reed turns himself into a ball and then expands his body in order to deflect water from a hydrant so that it gets directed at a fire. It's too bad that those fx were shown in dim-lighting because the elasticity was quite good.
If you really think about it, elasticity is the superpower of a Thousand uses. For visual effects, the possibilities are endless. Remember, a superhero movie has to have spectacular special effects, so Elasticity is obviously the best in that regard.

When you mentioned boredom, you forgot Captain America because he's one of the most boring. All he has is just his shield that he flings around like an absurd frisbee. What's so absurd is that he can make his shield fly back to him like a boomerang. Aerodynamically, it doesn't make any sense at all, just like you don't expect a frisbee to return. At least Batman makes sense because he uses a batarang.
Dannydoyle
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Yea Cap plays the ricochet and quite often is picking it up off the ground.

I get you REALLY like elasticity. But it is just not written well enough to be mainstream cool.
Danny Doyle
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Cliffg37
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Ant-man and the Wasp...

Two thumbs up.

Another winner for Marvel.
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rockwall
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Ant-man and the Wasp.

I think I laughed harder than I did for Thor Ragnarok. Great movie.
Orville Smith
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This morning, I was at McDonald's when I overheard another customer talking on his iPhone about the Ant-Man movie, which he was enthusiastic about. So after he clicked off his phone, I said how much I enjoyed it too, so we got into a very spirited chat. What a pleasant surprise for me to get into a spirited chat with a perfect stranger and talk about superheroes. Smile
rockwall
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I really, really enjoyed the running joke about Paul Rudd learning magic to entertain his daughter.
Orville Smith
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On Jul 7, 2018, rockwall wrote:
Ant-man and the Wasp.

I think I laughed harder than I did for Thor Ragnarok. Great movie.

Maybe that's why Marvel surpasses DC at the movies. Because of the humor. In comparison DC remains too serious. Especially with Bruce Wayne. We know how his parents demise traumatized him so much. So he became the Batman not because he wanted to, but because he had to. Contrast that with Barry Allen who became the Flash as the fulfillment of a childhood dream because during his childhood he used to read Flash comics of the other Flash,Jay Garrick.
As far as Bruce Wayne's trauma, one thing that used to interest me was that because of his severe trauma resulting from the demise of his Mother, Bruce Wayne had developed a very bizarre mental complex in the magazine version. That is, to substitute for the loss of his Mother, he had developed an Oedipus complex with the Catwoman. Oedipus complex meaning the Catwoman became his Mother Substitute. Even to the point where he let the Catwoman escape on several occasions.
Dannydoyle
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You mean a kid who watched his parents murdered in front of him when he was 10 and received little if any counseling might not have a well developed sense of humor? Whoda thunk?
Danny Doyle
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Orville Smith
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On Jul 4, 2018, Dannydoyle wrote:
I get you REALLY like elasticity. But it is just not written well enough to be mainstream cool.

Actually, quite the opposite, because Kyle Baker won the Will Eisner Award for Plastic Man. And the Will Eisner Award is the most prestigious award for comics excellence. And Plastic Man won it. So obviously Elasticity is on the A-list.
Dannydoyle
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Is there a difference in mainstream cool and what comic collectors think is cool?

Plus I was talking about movie written. The thing that is so hard to explain to comic geeks (Like me.) is the difference in what the world at large thinks as opposed to what we think. It must be popular with the world at large OUTSIDE the comic community to make money. In the end that is what matters to the studio.

Guardians certainly was not an A list comic was it? Not until AFTER the movie. (Which Rockwall predicted to be a smash and it was.) This was a case of mainstream driving comics instead of the other way around.
Danny Doyle
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rockwall
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If you're arguing that elasticity isn't written well enough "in the movies" to be mainstream cool, then I completely agree with you. That was entirely my point in my previous post about how poorly the movies have done with Mr Fantastic and how I'm am cautiously optimistic that Marvel studios may finally be able to get it right. If they 'can' get it right, then I see the Fantastic Four finally becoming an A-list movie property.
Dannydoyle
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Yes exactly. I think I mentioned the writing at the studio is pretty good now so they have a shot.
Danny Doyle
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
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