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avik_d
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Hey guys,

I know this question will sound a bit stupid, but this has been worrying me lately.

Please note that the effect mentioned below uses a gaff and should've been posted in "Trick coin trickery", but I believe my question's more related to the technique than the gaff, so decided to post it here. If the mods think otherwise, feel free to move this thread.

Okay, here you go... I perform the routine CoinOne by Homer Liwag for a long time now. I have four kennedy halves and a matching something, and they serve me beautifully. However, I always felt that I was not getting the reaction this nice routine deserves. Recently I was talking with Marion through PM over some stuff, and we just mentioned CoinOne somewhere along our discussion. This question cropped up inside my head again right there.

Strangely, I feel my problem has got something to do with the distance between my hands !! It's a common thing among all these transposition type of routines like 3 fly and Coins across, that they should produce not only the illusion of diminishing and increasing number of coins, but more importantly the illusion that the coins are REALLY teleporting between the hands. I'm not talking about David Roth's [ coins across (It's a gem by itself), but I'm talking about more visual routines like CoinOne and/or 3 fly. The moment a coin disappears in one hand should sync with the moment a coin appears in the other hand, which produces the illusion of teleportation. AND I BELIEVE THAT TO MAKE IT SUCCESSFUL, THE SPECTATOR SHOULD WATCH BOTH THESE EVENTS SIMULTANEOUSLY (please correct me if I'm wrong).

This evidently means that we should be keeping both the hands in the direct field of view of the spectator; he shouldn't put an effort to keep track of both the hands, right ? The spectator should always be able to enjoy the routine without any effort (That's our job as performer eh ?).

EXCEPT in scenarios where we allow some time for the coin to travel (for example vanishing a coin from one hand, following the invisible path with my eyes, and then announce it's arrival in the other hand with a distinctive "clink"), I believe the travel of the coin should be INSTANTANEOUS, like in CoinOne and 3 fly.

What should be the optimum distance between the hands to enable the viewer to watch both the hands? I guess the job is a bit easier in 3 fly for me. I talk while performing 3 fly, and the spectator looks at my face, WHICH IS IN BETWEEN THE TWO HANDS IN HIS FIELD OF VIEW, so he's able to follow both the hands parallely with penumbral vision.

This is not the case for CoinOne (The Face advantage is not there pun intended LOL), and I don't feel comfortable keeping the hands too close.

So, comments guys ? about the optimum distance between the two hands?

Once again, ignore if this question sounds stupid. I've seen Homer performing on the video and frying my head out the first time, but it's about performing for a flesh-n-blood viewer in front of me, and not a camera.

Thanks in advance !!
Best,



-Avik
Jonathan Townsend
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The sense of traveling has to with timing and attention direction.
the effect of two flashing lights creating an illusion of motion is called "phi phenomenon". Named by Werhheiner around 1910. The jumping coin trick using a gaff dates to about then as well.
Mickey Silver gets this working with coins.
It's much easier to explore the timing etc using d'lights and can be seen in the demo video for that product.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
SmileAndNod
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I completely disagree. Personally I really really really dislike coinone. It's pretty much everything I hate about coins across routines all compiled together.

Too many obvious "moves". (Meaning it's obvious that something fishy is being done)

Posted: Sep 22, 2014 04:26 pm Oh, I didn't finish my thought.

Basically coins across done in that style and things like 3 fly don't have any momentum. There's no buildup, there's no release, there's no relaxation or anything. The point of having the coin travel is to build up anticipation which allows for relaxation after each coin moves, which is theoretically when a move can be slid in invisibility. Without that, there is too much focus on the coins while the next move is being performed.
cperkins
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I really like the thinking of Curtis Kam on this very subject in the context of a three fly - as seen on his lecture at Penguin Magic. Putting his thinking into action on the subject of three fly improved my performance of this routine.

Personally, I disagree that the spectator should watch both the appearance and disappearance of the coins simultaneously in a three fly. At least not with equal attention. I either lead with the production OR the vanish and then let the spectator check the consequence of that effect on the opposite hand. Try it on a spec next time.

Cutis's lecture by the way, is full of wonderful coin routines and sleights and performance tips and enhancers - a good bargain for coin magicians.
To see a difficult thing lightly handled gives the impression of the impossible.
(Goethe)
harris
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I'm a Kam fan.
Harris Deutsch aka dr laugh
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Ray Haining
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I'm waiting for Penguin to put these lectures out on DVD, like the "At the Table" series. I've already purchased one in that series. I do not like downloads. I don't know what they're waiting for.
Michael Rubinstein
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Ray, they talked to me about having my kwn lecture kut soon as a dvd. Still waiting to hear about about release date. To answer the wuestion about the distance between the hands, keep in them at shoulder length is fine. Closer is too close. Further is fine as long as you are comfortable.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used on the book.
Jonathan Townsend
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Not sure you have to do that flash recovery sleight as an open production.
The method permits a classic style coins across. Look at your right hand - "One coin here" then look at your left hand close the fingers, jingle the coins in your left hand (use that moment to do the sleight) and continue.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
Michael Rubinstein
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I apologize for the typos that come from typing on a cell phone. Hope my post was understandable.
Available at dealers EVERYWHERE - RUBINSTEIN COIN MAGIC- The biggest book on coin magic since Bobo's Modern Coin Magic, and the most important since David Roth's Expert Coin Magic! Hardbound, 500 pages, 20 chapters of state of the art coin magic illustrated with 930 crisp photos! A contribution chapter from over 20 of the world's top coin magicians! This will be the book against which all future books on coin magic will be measured! Already called a Modern Classic!!
And if anyone (USA ONLY) needs some of the coin stuff used in the book, shoot me an email at rubinsteindvm@aol.com as I have some limited supplies of coins and props used on the book.
avik_d
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Thanks a lot everybody here for discussing through this. I guess I found a few replies which answer my question nicely.

Quote:
On Sep 22, 2014, Michael Rubinstein wrote:
...To answer the wuestion about the distance between the hands, keep in them at shoulder length is fine. Closer is too close. Further is fine as long as you are comfortable...


Thanks for the tip Doc. I'll try this one out. You surely have this knack of explaining things very lucidly !! I love that !!

Quote:
On Sep 22, 2014, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Not sure you have to do that flash recovery sleight as an open production.
The method permits a classic style coins across. Look at your right hand - "One coin here" then look at your left hand close the fingers, jingle the coins in your left hand (use that moment to do the sleight) and continue.


What you're referring to is the classical method of Coins Across. I believe it has its own flavor. It's meant to kill the spectator in slow motion !! As Mr. Roth said, this has been his favorite opener for long, and not without reasons.

However, I'd like to know whether you think that the flashback production gives a more visual aspect to the multiplying coins rather than closing your hand over one coin and opening it to show two? Yes I know the clink is there, still...

Quote:
On Sep 22, 2014, SmileAndNod wrote:
I completely disagree. Personally I really really really dislike coinone. It's pretty much everything I hate about coins across routines all compiled together.

Too many obvious "moves". (Meaning it's obvious that something fishy is being done)


I respect your personal opinion about this SmileAndNod. However I guess the spectator should have the last word if an effect is good or bad. And I haven't heard bad things about CoinOne from my viewers. I guess you obviously perform for a more observant viewership. That's surely gonna help us as performers !!
Best,



-Avik
J-Mac
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Here's an opinion that Curtis Kam posted a few years ago: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......25190#12

Here's the text of his post:

Quote:
On Aug 10, 2009, Curtis Kam wrote:
The thing that sets "3Fly" apart from other coins across effects is that it's supposed to be "visual". In other words, the audience sees something that they don't see during a "normal" coins across. That said, "3Fly" routines tend to fall into four groups:

1- The audience sees the coins disappear, but doesn't see them appear.
2- The audience sees the coins appear, but doesn't see them disappear.
3- The audience sees a little bit of both, happening at the same time.
4- The audience misses everything. Every time they look for a coin, it's already there, or already gone.

The best routine for you depends upon which of these effects you choose to achieve. The worst routines are ones in which the magician really hasn't put much thought into what effect he wants to create, and instead, just waves his hands around a lot and hopes somebody sees something that looks like magic.


Good thinking IMO.

Personally, Avik, I don’t think you should attempt to have the spectators see both events simultaneously, regardless of how you try to frame it. Can't be done practically.

Jim
avik_d
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Quote:
On Sep 23, 2014, J-Mac wrote:
Here's an opinion that Curtis Kam posted a few years ago: http://www.themagiccafe.com/forums/viewt......25190#12

Here's the text of his post:

Quote:
On Aug 10, 2009, Curtis Kam wrote:
The thing that sets "3Fly" apart from other coins across effects is that it's supposed to be "visual". In other words, the audience sees something that they don't see during a "normal" coins across. That said, "3Fly" routines tend to fall into four groups:

1- The audience sees the coins disappear, but doesn't see them appear.
2- The audience sees the coins appear, but doesn't see them disappear.
3- The audience sees a little bit of both, happening at the same time.
4- The audience misses everything. Every time they look for a coin, it's already there, or already gone.

The best routine for you depends upon which of these effects you choose to achieve. The worst routines are ones in which the magician really hasn't put much thought into what effect he wants to create, and instead, just waves his hands around a lot and hopes somebody sees something that looks like magic.


Good thinking IMO.

Personally, Avik, I don’t think you should attempt to have the spectators see both events simultaneously, regardless of how you try to frame it. Can't be done practically.

Jim


Surely some good food for thought. I admire both Kam's works and his thinkings. And Jim thank you for digging this post up for me. It describes exactly what I was trying to convey in my first post. Nice analysis by Curtis !!
Best,



-Avik
AlexanderS
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Good morning!
I perform 3-Fly and had kind of the same problem which I believe could also be yours. I came up with a 3-Fly routine that uses two normal Halfdollars and one special gimmick coin.
However the effect with my 3-Fly and the original one is the same. When I first did it in a close-up show I got great reactions from appearing three coins out of nowhere, then 3 Fly hardly any reaction and at the end when I vanished all four coins into nowhere - the audience literally went crazy.
So I took it out of my repertory and started to think about it, because 3-Fly should be as strong as a three coin appearance and vanish.
:
After about two months I discovered that I was too fast. Smile I simply gave them too less time to recognize what was happening. So basically two coins in my left hand, boom vanish - back in the right for example. That's too fast! Now I take the coin slowly - go through my presentation, look at the right hand give a shake and then it "travells".
The distance between my hands while doing this routine is about 80centimeters - 1 meter.
:
As a conclusion try to do it more slowly - just because they have two eyes doesn't mean that they can look at both of your hands simultaneously.
Hope I could help!

Your's,
Alexander
avik_d
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Nice idea Alex. I'd be interested to see a performance video of yours, if one's available. Mind sharing one?

I love your idea btw !!
Best,



-Avik
funsway
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I have been working on an eBook tilted "Trans Portal" for some time, exploring the reasons why a Transportation effect is accepted by an audience as being "more magical" or "stronger magic" than other types of magic effects.

Part of this is understanding why a spectator will perceive motion from a series of actions as opposed to some other conclusion such as "vanish and reappear."

Far from a "Stupid question" you are pondering a question of "why magic works!" Happy to discuss these ideas with you off-list -- far too complex for this forum.

What I can offer here is that the proximity or the hands and whether the shift of the object is synchronous or asynchronous are only two of the factors supporting this illusion of motion.

but, neither is essential for the illusion. "Timing" can be an important factor but also is not essential to the illusion.

Both Inference and Implication are more essential. So is the balance between Expectation and Astonishment or Anticipation and Surprise.

Enjoy the journey!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst



ShareBooks at www.eversway.com * questions at funsway@eversway.com
AlexanderS
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Thank you Avik! Smile
I'm currently really busy due to the fact that I am designing my website! But I will try and make some videos as soon as possible, you will get a PM from me when they are available! Smile
:
Another great tip in my opinion is the DVD "Salt and Silver by Giovanni Livera". With this routine you will get the timing right. - Giovanni is such a great teacher! And man just look how relaxed, slowly he does it. Plus actually it's a silent performance and still everybody gets amazed! - For me Salt and Silver is basically a mixture between misdirection and a coins accross routine, but instead to the hand, the coins go under and on the shaker.

Hear you soon Avik!
Alexander
avik_d
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Quote:
On Sep 23, 2014, funsway wrote:
I have been working on an eBook tilted "Trans Portal" for some time, exploring the reasons why a Transportation effect is accepted by an audience as being "more magical" or "stronger magic" than other types of magic effects.

Part of this is understanding why a spectator will perceive motion from a series of actions as opposed to some other conclusion such as "vanish and reappear."

Far from a "Stupid question" you are pondering a question of "why magic works!" Happy to discuss these ideas with you off-list -- far too complex for this forum.

What I can offer here is that the proximity or the hands and whether the shift of the object is synchronous or asynchronous are only two of the factors supporting this illusion of motion.

but, neither is essential for the illusion. "Timing" can be an important factor but also is not essential to the illusion.

Both Inference and Implication are more essential. So is the balance between Expectation and Astonishment or Anticipation and Surprise.

Enjoy the journey!



You're the Thinktank in the Café I guess, funsway !! I first fell in love with coin magic, more generally sleight-of-hand magic once I realised that a simple false transfer might well guide to a complete lesson in applied psychology and neuroscience !! Mind sharing your further thoughts regarding my original question? I'd love to talk more with you on this through PM Smile


Quote:
On Sep 23, 2014, AlexanderS wrote:
Thank you Avik! Smile
I'm currently really busy due to the fact that I am designing my website! But I will try and make some videos as soon as possible, you will get a PM from me when they are available! Smile
:
Another great tip in my opinion is the DVD "Salt and Silver by Giovanni Livera". With this routine you will get the timing right. - Giovanni is such a great teacher! And man just look how relaxed, slowly he does it. Plus actually it's a silent performance and still everybody gets amazed! - For me Salt and Silver is basically a mixture between misdirection and a coins accross routine, but instead to the hand, the coins go under and on the shaker.

Hear you soon Avik!
Alexander


Looking forward to seeing your idea in motion myself, Alex !! Thanks for the offer.

Yes I've seen a video performance of Salt and Silver by Giovanni. He's a post doctorate in misdirection I'd say ! Will look forward to picking this up in near future !
Best,



-Avik
fonda57
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With three fly, or any variation thereof, you have to give your coins reasons to vanish and re-appear, it seems to me. Just saying, "watch" and setting it in motion is not going to get it across. Like Dean Dill says, "always paint a clear picture."

Mr Townsend's original routine is in one of the Genii magazines, I don't have it with me at the moment, and he describes a rubber band notion for allowing people to see the vanish and recovery. I can't repeat it here, obviously.

Also, Mr. Rubenstein's Retro Fly addresses the same issues
I j
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Quote:
On Sep 22, 2014, Harris wrote:
I'm a Kam fan.


Thank you so much for letting us know. There's been a lot of speculation about whether or not you were a fan of Kam's, so it's good that you've finally cleared that up.

.
harris
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: )

Back a few years there was a column in the S.A.M magazine The M.U.M.

It was called the Beginer's mind.

It was kind of a zen meets magic, expanding on simple ideas.
There's gold to be mined here and there.

Harris
"if we can't laugh at ourselves, someone will beat us to it"
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