The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! » » Sharing ruins it for everyone... (13 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
Silvertongue
View Profile
Inner circle
One day I will die leaving behind
2424 Posts

Profile of Silvertongue
Quote:
On Oct 7, 2014, Lord Freddie wrote:
It's a bit like saying "your new car got smashed into - live with it, there's car thieves around. Just accept it." The lacksadasical attitude towards piracy displayed by many in the world of magic implies that few will fight this. Maybe they just like getting their free stuff?

I remember the "Magicians Against Piracy" thing a few years ago where file sharers were named and shamed. Apart from a few creators and authors (the ones being ripped off) the general consensus was that many in magic were on the side of the poor pirates who got exposed. When you're up against this attitude you realise the notions of a "brotherhood" and "community" exist only as an idealistic concept.


Its actually more like saying there is a gang of thieves in the neighbourhood who are stealing cars and burgularizing houses. How foolish it would be if we knew that this was happening to leave our cars and houses unlocked so the thieves could just come and take what they wanted. Now the problem is in our business is its all about secrets and once those secrets are out in the public domain it ruins it for all magicians. I understand you don't want to take any responsibility for your part in this process, no one ever does...
For as long as space exists,
And living beings remain in cyclic existence,
For that long, may I too remain,
to dispel the sufferings of the world.
-Shantideva

Engaging in the Conduct of a Bodhisattva
DrTodd
View Profile
Inner circle
1865 Posts

Profile of DrTodd
Look forward to the announcement Dan and Freddie.
Lord Freddie
View Profile
Inner circle
1093 Posts

Profile of Lord Freddie
Thanks Todd, your support is appreciated as always.


Silvertongue - your attitude is partially why this behaviour flourishes without any protest. It does increasingly seem to me you are on the side of the rip-off merchants and thieves rather than those trying to do something productive and worthwhile. It's this attitude, that of the enabler, that is ruining the community.
pickin_grinnin
View Profile
Regular user
Texas
144 Posts

Profile of pickin_grinnin
Quote:
I'm shocked that people in such a small and close knit community ripped us off and I'm also surprised at the "what did you expect?" attitude many have. It's a bit like saying "your new car got smashed into - live with it, there's car thieves around. Just accept it." The lacksadasical attitude towards piracy displayed by many in the world of magic implies that few will fight this. Maybe they just like getting their free stuff?


It's not so much a lackadaisical attitude as it is a realistic view of the situation. The music, movie, computer game, porn, and old school publisher industries have fought Internet piracy for over 15 years now. With all their money, lawyers, etc. they haven't been able to make a dent in it. It's an unwinnable fight. You can sometimes make a little dent in it if you devote a LOT of ongoing time and effort to it, but you can't stop it.

The closest thing you can do to tackling it is to do something along the lines of invisibly watermarking digital files with tracking numbers that indicate who purchased them, then constantly tracking any copies that surface in the vast torrent universe. Even then, you would have to also monitor UseNet, Tor "onion addresses," and other parts of the "darknet." Even if you were able to watch all that (which would be more than a full time job) you still wouldn't know what was flying around in specialized private file exchanges.

The stolen car analogy doesn't really work because it involves the theft of a real object. Online pirating is about duplicating and distributing copies of an electronic file. Property theft and IP theft are both theft from a legal and ethical standpoint, but that's where the resemblance ends. Electronic IP theft that includes free, mostly anonymous international sharing of copies is a much, much more difficult thing to address. It's not that people aren't willing to put in a lot of time, effort, and money. It's just a matter of all that not being enough to really curb much of anything.
Lord Freddie
View Profile
Inner circle
1093 Posts

Profile of Lord Freddie
I get what you are saying, but theft is theft and as this industry is such a small one which on the surface prides itself on being a "brotherhood" or "community", it's a bit more suprising than the same thing happening within something that has a far broader appeal such as music or films. The notion of a community of like-minded souls who have honour is a false one.
All that will happen is that less things will become available and people will be more inclined to keep their work to themselves. As I have said previously, the Mystic Menagerie, as it was, is finished and will be returning in a completely new format, one that is less attractive to the many disreputable elements within our ranks. I am sure you will all enjoy it as much as you did the magazine.
pickin_grinnin
View Profile
Regular user
Texas
144 Posts

Profile of pickin_grinnin
To get back to the topic at hand, though, I'm very sorry that "The Mystic Menagerie" ended up getting pirated. Putting out something for a very specific, relatively small audience can sometimes result in "security through obscurity," but unfortunately someone in the community decided to be unethical. That's a real shame, doubly so because there are so few good resources for Bizarre Magic.

I just learned about "The Mystic Menagerie" through this thread, and am sorry I missed it. If you are still interested in making a little money off the existing issues, I would love to buy the PDFs, at their full price (of course). I promise not to share them with everyone.
pickin_grinnin
View Profile
Regular user
Texas
144 Posts

Profile of pickin_grinnin
Quote:
All that will happen is that less things will become available and people will be more inclined to keep their work to themselves. As I have said previously, the Mystic Menagerie, as it was, is finished and will be returning in a completely new format, one that is less attractive to the many disreputable elements within our ranks. I am sure you will all enjoy it as much as you did the magazine.


I look forward to it!
Lord Freddie
View Profile
Inner circle
1093 Posts

Profile of Lord Freddie
Thank you! All the previous issues remain available on the website www.themysticmenagerie.com and the first issue was actually free!
We decided to offer the first one free and the others at a very reasonable price considering some the material within. There were many who were loyal and also people who contributed great pieces to the magazine and we appreciate the support of all of those that enabled the magazine to last as long as it did! We will be announcing the new project in the next few weeks!
Silvertongue
View Profile
Inner circle
One day I will die leaving behind
2424 Posts

Profile of Silvertongue
Quote:
On Oct 8, 2014, Lord Freddie wrote:
Silvertongue - your attitude is partially why this behaviour flourishes without any protest. It does increasingly seem to me you are on the side of the rip-off merchants and thieves rather than those trying to do something productive and worthwhile. It's this attitude, that of the enabler, that is ruining the community.


Again you are incorrect. Let us say there are 3 sides, although there are many more. The first side sells magic secrets for profit, the second side takes those magic secrets and shares them for free and the third side detestes the fact that the first and second sides are ruining magic for the community for many generations to come. I am of the third side. I do not condone what you do and I certainly do not condone what the sharers do. You are both the same to me you are allowing magic to be ruined, you are both part of the cycle that is ruining magic for everyone. Although you think you are doing something 'productive and worthwhile' I disagree...
For as long as space exists,
And living beings remain in cyclic existence,
For that long, may I too remain,
to dispel the sufferings of the world.
-Shantideva

Engaging in the Conduct of a Bodhisattva
Darkness
View Profile
Inner circle
1457 Posts

Profile of Darkness
I like's Dan's picture Smile
weepinwil
View Profile
Inner circle
USA
3290 Posts

Profile of weepinwil
How many new modern effects are based upon principles magicians used decades ago? Isn't that piracy, too? Yet many magicians against modern piracy use these center tears, peak techniques, and other methods. Where is the line drawn?
"Til Death us do part!" - Weepin Willie
Lord Freddie
View Profile
Inner circle
1093 Posts

Profile of Lord Freddie
Silvertongue - so producing a low cost quality magazine for a genre that is underrepresented is something you seem to despise?
Wow! You really are something else!

The fact that it appears you expect everything on a plate for free has made it clear as to which mast your colours are nailed.
PROF BC
View Profile
Inner circle
1360 Posts

Profile of PROF BC
No, Silvertongue, when I leapt to your defense a few days ago I thought I understood your side of things, but you've gone into territory I simply cannot accept. You are lumping together every magic publication that has ever been printed with pirates who illegally copy and freely distribute them. Publications require effort, time, resources, willing contributors, money AND (most importantly) the approval of the community it serves, who vote with their subscriptions to support the publication. Subscription ensures the material remains in the hands of those who have committed themselves to the study of the craft (commitment being measured by the price of subscription).

Piracy utterly subverts the work of the publishers, editors, contributors, as well as the subscribers who underwrite that work.

Worse, piracy reveals the hard-fought secrets of this community to anyone at all, the serious student of the craft as well as the casual observer bent only on exposure or explanation.

Weepinwill: it isn't piracy to study an art, master it, and present it as art. As you say, magic principles have been around for decades (even centuries), but it is not piracy to use the tools of the art to create a new expression. So, too, have oil paints and brushes been around for generations, yet once you have painted your canvas, no one has the right to undermine the value of your work by putting it out on the web without your permission. One's artistic paternity is codified in international copyright law where the lines you enquire after have been drawn.

The recent Teller case again made clear that methods are not copyrightable, only performances, routines, scripts, and specific designs fall under legal protection.

Thus, to return to the point, if a magician devises a new center tear or handling of a classic device, routines it, writes a script, and chooses to share it with a definable subscriber base (as, say, Linking Ring subscribers), he has the right to expect his work will be respected and shared only amongst those discrete few he chooses to tell. When one of those persons betrays that trust and barfs the work onto the internet under colour of 'I bought the magazine, I own everything in it' then he is quite wrong; if caught he may be open to prosecution--but the damage has already been done.

Followed to its logical conclusion, innovative magicians will simply stop sharing, and many extraordinary handlings and routines will die out every generation. That would be a shame.

What Freddie and Dan are doing with MM is a service to everyone who chooses to pay for their hard work and the innovative work of their contributors. No one has the right to take these persons' work and bandy it about as if he has the right to do it. That is what copyright is all about, after all. To argue contrarily is reprehensible.

Prof BC
Phasmologist
Silvertongue
View Profile
Inner circle
One day I will die leaving behind
2424 Posts

Profile of Silvertongue
What do I expect for free? I have already explained I am on niether ship, I fly no flag. I have spent $1000's of dollars supporting this 'Underrepresented'? community. I have been part of this community for 15 years and the larger magic community for 30 years and have not asked anyone to represent me.
For as long as space exists,
And living beings remain in cyclic existence,
For that long, may I too remain,
to dispel the sufferings of the world.
-Shantideva

Engaging in the Conduct of a Bodhisattva
Lord Freddie
View Profile
Inner circle
1093 Posts

Profile of Lord Freddie
So you have spent "$1000's" but despise anyone who sells anything? You are either a hypocrite or a troll.
I'm trying to work out which! Lol
Intrepid
View Profile
Special user
Silver Spring, MD
974 Posts

Profile of Intrepid
Quote:
On Oct 8, 2014, Silvertongue wrote:
You are both the same to me you are allowing magic to be ruined, you are both part of the cycle that is ruining magic for everyone.

Under this logic everyone here who has ever purchased a magic book has also been an active participant in this cycle in which magic literature is created and sold. A pretty board net to be casting.

The one common sentiment shared in the back and forth here is a wishful longing for a world other than the imperfect reality we have. This is something that all of us in our own way can relate to.
Bob
Godzilla
View Profile
Inner circle
Tied & Untied Witches on
5318 Posts

Profile of Godzilla
" If, You are not part of the Solution, You are part of the Problem " Smile

I had a Boss, that loved to say this ... about everything !
"If you watch Godzilla backwards, it's about a big ass lizard who helps rebuild a half burnt-down city, then moonwalks back into the ocean"
Lord Freddie
View Profile
Inner circle
1093 Posts

Profile of Lord Freddie
Very true though Godzilla!
horus1
View Profile
Special user
639 Posts

Profile of horus1
Count me part of a "fourth side" Silvertongue.
I've posted this before, but
I believe that creatives need to be paid, and paid well.

(And I write this as someone who is well paid for his creativity in another field rife with people who want it for free.)

We have some brilliant minds in the bizarre community.. I hope they get rich!

I also take private magic lessons. (I'm trying very hard to develop excellent technique) I pay for these lessons.
I love the idea of the back room magic club days of yore... but I'm very busy,
and when I want to work on my magic, I want it to happen on my time frame. Therefore, I compensate the expert who accommodates my schedule and am grateful
for the decades of knowledge he shares with me.
It's a beautiful thing.

It's not much different than purchasing a book or magazine that someone has painstakingly compiled.

Sharing public domain knowledge and life experience among the magician brotherhood is wonderful.
There are plenty of resources like the Café and this forum that accommodate that. People in spooky are very generous with
their thoughts.

But at the end of the day.. people need be able to make a living.
How wonderful is it that someone can potentially make a living in magic??
That perpetuates the art form. It doesn't destroy it.
The Curator
View Profile
V.I.P.
Beware Vampire, I have
3800 Posts

Profile of The Curator
Quote:
On Oct 8, 2014, PROF BC wrote: Followed to its logical conclusion, innovative magicians will simply stop sharing, and many extraordinary handlings and routines will die out every generation. That would be a shame.


Well, for me, it makes sense.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The spooky, the mysterious...the bizarre! » » Sharing ruins it for everyone... (13 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.17 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL