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MacGyver Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1419 Posts |
If you want to hurt your head, just think about how can any of us actually exist... how does the universe exist... I mean where does it exist in?
I think there is some evolutionary thinking block because it always sends chills through my mind when I think about even a vacuum "existing". On a completly different note, does anyone think it will be possible to build a "four dimensional" viewing device? One that could actually detect curvature in spacetime? I am thinking the "viewer" itself might have to exist with four dimensional parts... hmm... could lead to wormhole discovery among other things. Also, anyone think we could capture the "negative energy" part of quantum fluctuations? then concievably if we could store the negative energy particals en masse, then we could concievably keep a wormhole active and enlarged. Of course, this brings up a lot of other possibilities, such as creating an inverse black whole with said particles, a huge mass that pushes spacetime away, rather than pulls it in. Well, one could dream |
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
I'm reminded of an Emo Phillips line: "I use to think the brain was the most fascinating part of the human body, but then I thought 'look what's telling me to think that way'!
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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kihei kid Inner circle Dog House 1039 Posts |
On 2004-01-29 11:29, jonesc2ii wrote:
Quote:
Not so. I believe in creationism (I believe in many Gods though, not a Christian/other single God, creator of all existence, but that's another story) but I also believe that people and animals evolve over time. This is were you and I part ways jones2cii, and OBTW my brother thinks along the same lines as you. Here is a quote from George Wald a leading evolutionists “The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. There is no third position.” It cannot be both ways, if the universe never existed as proven by Einstein’s General Relativity this means someone or something came along at one point and created it. It did not just come into existence on it’s own. The only possible way evolution could have happened is if everything was already here and we evolved from that. Evolution cannot have a beginning, that means someone or something started (made up, created, began etc. etc.) what we are doing now. I never wrote that science has proven that evolution doesn’t occur, Microevolution does for sure. However seeing that creationism has always been the point of view as to how we arrived at this point in time, it is up to the evolutionists to prove otherwise, not visa versa. Not only have they failed miserably at this but their “theory” makes Swiss cheese look like a solid block of cheddar. No links to provide you just books and the one that still has everyone up in arms is Darwins Black Box by Michael J. Behe. It is written by a microbiologist who still believes in some form of evolution but points out from a scientific standpoint it would have been impossible for us to have evolved.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.
You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed. Until we meet again “my old friend”. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Before we look into the RECENT mathematical proof that the measured geometry of space-time appears to support an expanding universe that came from a singularity...
Science is a limited discourse consisting of measurements, experimental design and careful parsimonious assertions about what 'is'. The instances of fraud and prejudice interfering with scientific theory and practice are usually quickly found and openly discussed. In general, folks in the 'science' field keep log books to record their findings and decisions. The best of observational evidence suggests that there is some sort of expansion going on in the large scale environment around us. Taking that process as constant, one has the logical imperative to explore the hypothetical consequences of at least the simplest explanation, a 'big bang'. The background radiation discovered by the folks at Bell Labs seems to support this hypothesis. Science is about finding the simplest and most efficient means of accurately predicting the outcomes of experiments. The goal of experimental design is to find the most telling instance where the hypothesized property of the universe will be present or not. Very clever people designed and built the materials used to detect and measure 'aether wind' and found NONE! They even moved this HUGE and HEAVY apparatus around to check if the location of the experiment was effecting the outcomes. MOST scientists would welcome a different result than was was found. The facts are in. Anyone who wants to design a more telling experiment and see it through is of course welcome to do so. The notions that came from Erasmus Darwin's hypothesis, and his son Charles Darwin's observations of finches and other creatures that spent thousands of years in relative isolation... have congealed into a theory. The evidence of much of what we can measure about the world seems to support this theory. This in NO WAY even suggests that additional discoveries will support or refute the theory. Good experimental design and new evidence is always welcome. Science is an OPEN discussion. The rules are known and taught to children in school. While science can NOT offer any absolute or 'truth', it can and does offer the best model that takes into account the observations and experimental findings of our best and brightest minds.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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KingStardog Inner circle 2134 Posts |
Has anyone else caught the time travel show the science channel yet? Maybe on a TiVo?
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
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MacGyver Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1419 Posts |
Nope, but I want too!!!!
Perhaps we should move the evolution discussion to another thread... really doesn't belong in the time travel thread, its getting to be off topic. I don't believe that evolution has to go up against creationism. If there was a theory that we were all aliens and matter was really all parts of the devil and that gravity didn't exist, and someone comes along saying "Hey we can prove gravity exists", I don't think that same person is responsible for proving the rest of the guy's crazy theories. Evolution just says how genetics evolve, not how we got here. |
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Jason Wethington Special user Orlando, Fl 615 Posts |
There is a proposed theory that the universe expands and contracts in a cyclical nature. The problem as I understand it is that at the singularity, the enormous release of energy pushed the universe out at such a rate that even at this point in its expansion it is moving too fast for gravity to stop it. We aren't sure if it will ever slow enough to stop and retract on itself. It sometimes makes my brain sizzle when I try to comprehend what is "Beyond" the universe for it to expand into. Ouch.
One last thought on the evolution discussion, Science and Theology disagree on the age of the earth. Science puts the approximate age between 4.5 and 4.7 billion years. Theology puts the earth between 6-15 thousand years. My problem with the latter view is that it doesn't account for things that we know existed outside that 6-15,000 range. Evolution does not exclude creationism because both are entirely possible. Humans are animals and the governing rules of the universe apply to us. I cannot fathom that we just appeared in a mature form on the earth. It doesn't seem likely at all. Evolution in my opinion supports the idea that a singularity occurred, the universe came into being (not as we know it now but in a nebulous form) gravity took over and began to coalesce the matter with the most mass. Once stars and planets were formed chemical processes took over and life began springing up all over the galaxy. Through the specific circumstances that occurred here the organisms began to develop and change into increasingly more complex organisms. The entire scope of life on this planet is the result of that. Science has always taken a bad rap because it tries to explain things (sometimes inaccurately). Hundreds of years ago it was considered ludicrous to believe that the earth revolved around the sun in an elliptical pattern. Two heresies there, first that the earth wasn't the center of the universe and two that it didn't revolve in a circle (they are perfect). Today, if you were to say the earth revloves around the sun, people would laugh at the idea and consider it ludicrous. Maybe in another hundred years people will luagh and think it was ludicrous to think evolution was possible or that Creationism was possible because of new discoveries in science. Right now we can only speculate and that is what makes it interesting to me. I too agree that the topic should be moved. See you guys there when it does. P.S. Evolution was sanctioned by Papal authority as being more than a theory. I am not catholic I only bring this up to make a point (obviously). Cheers, Jason |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Ultimately true or not, there is a rather substantial and robust model of the world we know with our senses that offers something we find very handy... expectations.
A scientific theory offers the ability to accurately predict experimental and observational phenomena. No predictions, and no measurements means NOT SCIENCE. Out of bounds for discourse via scientific method. Even if much of our perceived reality were to be illusory, the accurate predictions allow us to enjoy air travel, computers, telecommunications, all that medical stuff we depend on... which seems silly to scoff at. The practical proof is in the results. Perhaps someday someone will accurately compute, halt or reverse the phenomena we call 'gravity' or 'causality' using faith. Till then, we have science help us know how fast things move, when they will reach the ground, and even offer a good estimate of where they will fall. Again, MOST scientists are open to findings which suggest belief can affect experimental results. The first researcher to demonstrate this will probably win a Nobel prize and be remembered for a LONG LONG time. Peace
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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kihei kid Inner circle Dog House 1039 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-01-30 12:56, Jason Wethington wrote: Agreed.
In loving memory of Hughie Thomasson 1952-2007.
You brought something beautiful to this world, you touched my heart, my soul and my life. You will be greatly missed. Until we meet again “my old friend”. |
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abc Inner circle South African in Taiwan 1081 Posts |
All you need for time travel is a 1.21 gigawatts flowing into the flux capacitor at precisely 88 miles per hour in a really neat looking automobile. Don't forget, it runs on Plutonium not unleaded.
If you disagee you should go back in time to 1985 and study under DR Emmett Brown before he became famous as Christopher Lloyd in Back to the Future. I really hope when the objects start falling out of that time machine they don't send us a super power nuclear bomb and destroy all our hard work. Truth is that all the things discussed here are theory. It is called the Relativity Theory, The Quantum theory, the evolution Theory etc. Although there are parts of these that are proven they will remain theories until proven in full which is currently not possible. Science is mainly used to explain the world we live in and I feel that bashing each others opinions here are not in good spirit. If any of these theories were actually proven in full it would alter our world so differently that we would not even have time to think about how ludicrous anything else was. It seems like Creationism and Evolution are known to many people but I worry when I get into these discussions to see how little people really know about these theories. It is possible theoretically for both Evolution and Creationism to co-exist depending on your view of the two theories. But time travel?? It is way to dificult to build a flux capacitor and if you do travel at 88 miles per hour you'll get stopped for speeding before you travel in time. Even if you did manage to go to another time the FBI's Time Travel department will track you down whenever or where ever you are. |
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
Last I heard, 'creationism' was not a scientific theory. The way it was presented to me, it was an interpretation of some findings from science and while it serves as a rational philosophical theory it lacks some components of a scientific theory. It would be a scientific theory if it offered the ability to accurately predict experimental findings and to suggest experimental design which has demonstrated both utility and a propensity to produce experimental findings. Perhaps the folks who support that model of the universe have started using scientific method and have some new findings that support their hypothesis. That would be impressive.
Anyway, them's the rules of science. Experiment and measurement are the cornerstones of scientific theory. Life gets uncomfortable when beliefs and scientific theory get confounded. Beliefs affect our feelings. Theories in science offer a map of the observable world that has proven useful to navigate the observable world. The two realms, internal sentiment and expectation of the outer world are best kept at arms reach. One way to explain this to a youngster is to remind them that it does not help to cry over spilled milk.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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abc Inner circle South African in Taiwan 1081 Posts |
I misstated my meaning I didn't mean to call creationism a scientific theory but it is still theory that attempts to explain the origin of the universe and for that matter life on earth and some where else should it exist or not. Correctly it is a philosophical theory.
What I did intend to say though is that it is possible for a theory such as the evolution theory to co-exist with another non-scientific theory such as creationism and that the two does not necesarily exclude each other. I am not saying that I believe or not believe in either theory but creationism does not only state that a supernatural power created all the universe and that that "Power" does not make use of conceptual theories such as evolution to for instance maintain the creation. Evolution on the other hand assumes that something already existed for evolution to take place and does not attemt to explain the origin of that which already existed. Thus I feel that to believe that only one of these theories whether scientific or not can exist is incorrect. They and many other can co-exist or all of them could be proven wrong in a few years. I guess that is why science keeps growing. It is important to note though that all current scientific theories started off as philosphical theories. I hope that explains my view whether it sound crazy or not. I still feel that the paradox of time travel makes it practically impossible I hope no-one took offense. |
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jonesc2ii Loyal user Oxford, England 235 Posts |
Kihei kid,
Behe includes Darwin in a list of names of scientists who were "correct but couldn't express it at their time". He doesn't say what you're saying, that creationism and evolution are mutually exclusive.
www.ixyl.co.uk/forums - for when you fancy a debate or a quiet chat.
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MacGyver Inner circle St. Louis, MO 1419 Posts |
Quote:
If I told you what happens when I experiment by passing a Helium-Cadmium laser thru the arc you guys would write me off So what DOES happen when you pass a Helium-Cadium Laser through the arc?!?!?!? still waiting |
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magicgeorge Inner circle Belfast 4299 Posts |
I tried it in my garage. My legs turned to mashed potato and small green chickens started dropping out of the air.
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Jonathan Townsend Eternal Order Ossining, NY 27297 Posts |
I have to caution against using a helium neon laser through the park. People and cops get real nervous about the red dot. Though if you use three to make a triangle like in the movie Predator... could be interesting.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
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KingStardog Inner circle 2134 Posts |
(edit)
This is the guy. Oddly enough all of the recent articles from this year as well as they drawings, and photos of the machine being assembled have been removed from the net. All links for the origional show are now gone as well. Only these sanitized types of articles are available since took the project over. http://www.walterzeichner.com/thezfiles/timetravel.html
...think not that all wisdom is in your school. You may have studied other paths,but, it is important to remember that no matter who you are or where you come from, there is always more to learn.
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
I wonder how long before he has his own infomercial playing at night? It could work as a commercial if he said he would get the viewer to take a little trip... turns it on... then the same segment plays on the TV again.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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irossall Special user Snohomish, Washington 529 Posts |
Quote:
On 2004-01-30 01:34, Greg Arce wrote: Wonderful line, I Love it. It seems to me if time travel to the past is possible, that would be proof of imortality. To visualize it, think of your life as a ring. The starting point and ending point are at the same location (birth & death) and our consciousness <sp> only knows one point at a time on that ring. Our moment of death is our moment of birth. This could be the explaination of prodigy,s. Maybe as we live our lives over and over again, we learn to do things better and better and someday we will all be extremely good at what we do and we finaly learn not to make the same mistakes. In essence, we achieve perfection. Just a whacko thought I had. Iven
Give the gift of Life, Be an Organ Donor.
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Greg Arce Inner circle 6732 Posts |
Iven, I hope you're right. There's a lot of mistakes I made and I would hope to correct them.
Greg
One of my favorite quotes: "A critic is a legless man who teaches running."
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