...some of the jokes are racially insensitive...

if you imagine them doing the same kind of jokes but talking about gay people or african-american (as examples), and did the same "impressions" and jokes/puns, then I would say there would be a bigger uproar...even in the uk, I would say that its seen as a lesser slight to still do this kind of stuff towards the chinese and japanese...its strange...

i would have hoped someone might have told these two gents that it would come across as insensitive at best and to not make the jokes that they did... I'd not heard those puns since the re-runs of Benny Hill in the 70s...

And to play devil's advocate, or even the devil's advocaat - if someone had made a joke at lee earle's expense, I wonder what the response would have been?

I think you guys need to see Rickles.

Iain-

You make a good point. Back in the 70's this kind of humor was still common. It was used on shows like Benny Hill and over here on popular programs like "Laugh In." Go back to the fifties and sixties and take a look at the way Jerry Lewis, at the height of his popularity, imitated a Japanese man, complete with stereotypical thick glasses and buck teeth.

Poplar magic tricks of the time included the Chinese Laundry Ticket, The Foo Can, and The Fu-Ling-Yu gag. Many American and English magicians used fake Oriental Names, wore stereotypical costumes, and adopted accents that would be seen as offensive today.

Times have changed, no doubt. What was considered funny then is recognized as insensitive today. But I would hardly call Benny Hill, Rowan and Martin, or Jerry Lewis, racists. Nor do I believe that Larry and Lee are the least bit prejudiced. (Though I'd agree that the humor in this routine is old fashioned and dated.)

Larry Becker is eighty-five years old. He was born in 1929. To his generation, this kind of humor was pretty standard. (As it was to many in Lee's generation.) My grandparents used to go to minstrel shows and thought Al Jolson was the greatest entertainer they'd ever seen. But I never thought of them as stupid or morons. I respected them deeply.

Times change.

And tolerance cuts both ways.

Speak for yourself. I'm more than happy to respond and debate with those who I disagree with, however strongly I/they feel about something. A little empathy goes a long way and discussing it often helps to clarify our own thinking.

Don't get me wrong - one of my favourite modern day comedians is doug stanhope...but despite his severity and choise phrasing and general mocking... the rules are different for a comedian...

whereas this is for performing mentalism, and the audience's expectations are going to be different too...its a shame no one looked at the video or instructions and just said "hey fellas - *this* and *this* needs changing"...

i think it is a personal responsibility to be aware of times changing, not sure if age is a sufficient "out"!

part of me also considers this...considering the amount of rip-offs of magic and mentalism products there are out there, and a good percentage are from china...i wonder if they made copies of this and saw the menus?

Rude cuts both ways Sean.

Go back and read the language used against me all thread. Even yours. "This is what seperates the men from the boys" - do you have ANY idea how irritating that kind of language is? Who the hell do you think you are? You have some copywrite on what makes a man?
How about George hunter "if we didn't want you on here blah blah blah" - what is this, the mafia? I don't have to ask permission from anyone to be here.

There are tons of posts on here telling me I should be embarrassed while the poster defends a horrible video. THAT IS EMBARASSING.

Rude is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't speak down to you when I address you unless I'm personally attacked. I have respect for everyone here unless given a reason not to. I DO NOT respect this product or its creators so I addressed the topic accordingly. Look how often I'm spoken down to in this thread.

Time and time again, the elder statesmen of this forum are given a chance to show a little bit of foresight and compassion and they choose to come off like know it alls who can never be wrong about anything. There is a sense of entitlement and arrogance that permeates the culture of this place. It is sad.

Now THAT'S funny!

I really hope you're not referring to me. I believe my next to last post was actually a plea for some compassion and understanding. And, besides, I don't think further name calling (i.e., "know it alls, who can never be wrong about anything," "a sense of entitlement and arrogance," etc., does much to advance the discussion.)

I completely understand your objection to the material and I certainly don't mean to attack you because of your opinion. I have only objected to the blanket statement that Larry and Lee are "stupid" and "morons." (Sorry, but I don't see much compassion and understanding in that statement, though I have no doubt that you are fundamentally an understanding and compassionate person.)

The thing is, and I hope you understand, that I think of Larry as family as well as a brother performer. I first met him forty years ago when I was only twenty-five and he was very influential to me, even though we have completely different performance styles.

A brief digression that might give you a better idea of where I'm coming from:

I don't believe that my grandfather (born in 1900), who would often say things in jest that that many would consider racist or offensive today, was either stupid or a moron. Ethnic humor was very common in his day and Germans (as well as the Irish- the other side of my family) were often the butt of it. But I remember the day he when he was involved in an automobile accident that resulted in the near death of a pedestrian who was a member of a racial minority. My grandfather was overcome with grief and sadness for the man and his family. Until that day I never saw him cry before. Despite his sometimes crude sense of humor, he didn't have a racist bone in his body and had true compassion for others. (He never really even knew any minority group members even though he was, in fact, a member of a then-despised minority himself- a German immigrant during the second world war who, when the US entered the war, found himself under investigation by the FBI simply because he'd served in the German army in the FIRST world war. My mother, just a child at the time, told her schoolmates that she was from Switzerland.)

I have always given a little more slack to people from previous generations who were, frankly, just brought up in an era where racial sensitivity was not what it is today. They really just didn't know any better. (And, as I noted earlier, racial stereotyping remained common in comedy, television, the movies AND MAGIC into the early 1970's and much later in certain parts of the country.)

Thus, I tend to forgive older folks for their lapses and for laughing at jokes that the rest of us no longer find particularly funny. And I believe that Larry and Lee are still worthy of respect for their considerable contributions to the art.

I've never believed in ad hominem attacks. Attack the idea, NOT the person.

So, yes, if Larry or Lee had asked me what I thought of that script before they published it, I would have told them it was a stupid idea. But I'd never think of calling them stupid.



Peace.

Axel:

You paraphrased me as saying that being considered offensive or old fashioned is "something that is going to happen to anybody who lives long enough."

Actually, I do not believe that is an an inevitable experience for anybody and everybody if they live long enough. I was saying it specifically in reference to DM.

Let me suggest that it may already be happening to DM. While he opposes racist allusions, he is still ALL FOR "name calling" as long as it isn't "racist!" In this thread, at least, he practices it, defends it, considers it fully justified.

Historically though, for at least 23 centuries, name calling has been considered the shallowest form of Sophistry. That insight is now, at last, becoming mainstream (although politicians in campaign seasons are among the last to catch on).

So I stand by my forecast. If DM keeps talking and writing this way, by 2036 most people would consider him a linguistically unreconstructed, offensive, geezer.

I have invested more energy in this thread than I ever planned to. It is possible that DM and his acolytes will insist on the last word; that is okay, I am probably out of here.

George Hunter (my real name!)

Bob I was not referring to you. I always find your posts to be worded intellegiently with sound reasoning supporting your views. That's all one can ask for.

George - I'll take you on that bet because you are way off yet again. I didn't call someone a name like a bully in some schoolyard. I personally disparaged 2 people who I thought went way overboard. If you think what I did is in any way equal to that video than I just don't know what to tell you. My attack is based on something of substance. There is an actual reason for my anger. You don't seem to understand that in the slightest and keep trying to equate me to them for some reason. Just completely different animals.

If someone gets on the Café and brags about torrenting I am going to call them a thief (which has happened many times btw). If someone posts racial nonsense I'm gonna call them whatever name I can come up with. Some people deserve to be called out.

There is right and there is wrong. It is not as subjective as everyone keeps wanting it to be.

To bobs point perhaps I should have just titled them something else besides "stupid". Not the best choice of words. But I thought that would be LESS impactful than calling them racists or something worse. I went with what I thought was the softest insult I could come up with. Something you'd say to your friend if you were joking around (me and my friends call each other names in jest all the time).

I just can't escape the thought that everyone got ****ed off because someone not "in the circle" attacked someone inside the circle. I wonder how many of you would've spoken up had the EXACT same video been posted by a nobody. I'm certain I would've had more agreement with my views off the bat.

I keep resolving to ignore this thread. It's one of those where no one is going to change their minds. Why do I keep coming back?

Mike: The issue isn't that you're a 'nobody' leveling criticisms at some of the people who would be considered 'mentalism royalty.' There are two issues here:

The first has been roundly discussed: that attacking the product is okay...and your right. But attacking the people who designed it ISN'T okay. Either you're going to understand that or not. Up to you.

Does it matter that these two guys have contributed so many great things? Let's be honest here: it really sort of does. The mentalism community is in a flux with new people coming in with new ideas -- different ways of doing things. That's the way of life. It's how advances to the art happen.

But along with new people comes a certain disdain from some of them for those who came before us. This is a small community, Mike. And the community of those who perform mentalism for a living -- or a portion of their living -- is smaller still. We all KNOW the debt we owe to the performers were on-stage doing mentalism before many of us were even born. It's simply a matter of respect.

Respect is part of living in a community.

This is the reason why so many of us bristle at any attack on people like Osterlind, Cassidy and other high profile mentalists. The same applies to Larry and Lee. Or Corinda. Or Annemann. The fingerprints of all of these guys (and many more) are all over our acts. More than public figures, many of these guys have become good friends.

It is the way of communities to look out for and protect the people who lead the way...and ferociously protect your friends. That's the way it works. It's not a banding together of lemmings -- or the smacking down of anyone who doesn't toe the line. It is simply the way small communities act.

You're an obviously intelligent and passionate person, Mike.

I've read all you've had to say from the perspective of someone who HAS performed SS. I chose to do it without many of the jokes...not because I found them offensive. I saw them as too corny for my taste. But I took the effect and worked with it until it became something that was a solid part of my act.

You are entitled to your views. But you might want to take a cue from the guys who are showing you respect by taking the time to respond to your post...and reconsider making your criticisms personal instead of confined to discussions about the product.

Just some thoughts I wanted to share with you.

David

My name is not Mike, it's Nitin (in case anyone wanted to know).

And you're right, we are going to disagree on whether their contributions matter. The issue at hand is much bigger than mentalism or magic to me. To you it isn't, and while its hard for me to understand that, that is your prerogative.

I don't have a lot of respect for the viewpoints expressed in that video. But I do respect you all defending your community. I just wish your defense was aimed in a different direction.

Either way, we are all good in my book. That goes for everyone.

Nitin, someone mentioned the name earlier, Don Rickles.

Just curious, do you hold him in such contempt also? And, Louis CK? And, Bill Maher? And, Richard Pryor? And, John Belushi? And, Chris Rock? And, ...

That comparison has been shot down in this thread already Kabbalah. They are comedians.

Your earlier post says point blank the video is not offensive. Yet my comments are offensive by your logic. THAT I find contempt worthy. That is just plain crazy talk.

So, comedians are automatically given a pass? Why?

Crazy talk because I disagree with you? That is crazy.

Now that IS silly.

DM doesn't have any acolytes on here, although there may be some who agree with his general argument.

You cheapen yours by such silly comments and you really should know better.

Read through the thread. Comedians are often basing their humor on an underlying concept, typically something intelligent or socially relevant. Maher and Rock are perfect examples of people who push culture forward using race and politics as a means to do so.

Crazy talk because you don't find the video offensive. I could understand finding BOTH me and the video offensive. But only me? How can someone respond to that? That video is CLEARLY offensive. I didn't respond to that post because I felt there was nothing to be gained by replying to you. Also because a million people were coming at me at the same time.