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Mystification
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Magnus Eisengrim
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RNK
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More PROOF Iraq had WMD's! What say you to this article Magnus?
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And Landmark?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, RNK wrote:
More PROOF Iraq had WMD's! What say you to this article Magnus?


I say what I said in the other thread. Fragments of discarded weapons is not the same thing as weapons. You might as well say that Germany has active weapons in Europe because there are still undetected landmines.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
tommy
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If these are weapons of mass destruction, then I wonder why Iraq didn’t use these weapons of mass destruction against U.S. troops and mass destruct them?

Perhaps Sadam thought, no I better not, or I will get into trouble. Smile
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Yea random fragments of weapons are all over the place.
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<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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From the descriptions, these are abandoned weapons many years past being serviceable. Perhaps there is more information to come out.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
balducci
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, Mystification wrote:
Http://www.ijreview.com/2014/10/188068-s......r-water/

It misrepresents in several places what the NY times article actually says. You would do better to read the original article, not a spin doctored version of it.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/......ons.html

Some key excerpts, especially the last three paragraphs:

After the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, Mr. Bush insisted that Mr. Hussein was hiding an active weapons of mass destruction program, in defiance of international will and at the world’s risk. United Nations inspectors said they could not find evidence for these claims.

Then, during the long occupation, American troops began encountering old chemical munitions in hidden caches and roadside bombs. Typically 155-millimeter artillery shells or 122-millimeter rockets, they were remnants of an arms program Iraq had rushed into production in the 1980s during the Iran-Iraq war.

All had been manufactured before 1991, participants said. Filthy, rusty or corroded, a large fraction of them could not be readily identified as chemical weapons at all. Some were empty, though many of them still contained potent mustard agent or residual sarin. Most could not have been used as designed, and when they ruptured dispersed the chemical agents over a limited area, according to those who collected the majority of them.

In case after case, participants said, analysis of these warheads and shells reaffirmed intelligence failures. First, the American government did not find what it had been looking for at the war’s outset, then it failed to prepare its troops and medical corps for the aged weapons it did find.

Participants in the chemical weapons discoveries said the United States suppressed knowledge of finds for multiple reasons, including that the government bristled at further acknowledgment it had been wrong. “They needed something to say that after Sept. 11 Saddam used chemical rounds,” Mr. Lampier said. “And all of this was from the pre-1991 era.”

Others pointed to another embarrassment. In five of six incidents in which troops were wounded by chemical agents, the munitions appeared to have been designed in the United States, manufactured in Europe and filled in chemical agent production lines built in Iraq by Western companies.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, Mystification wrote:
You would do better to read the original article, not a spin doctored version of it.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2014/......ons.html

Some key excerpts, especially the last three paragraphs:
...United Nations inspectors said they could not find evidence for these claims...


Speaking of spin doctored. You think a reasonable person might believe that one reason evidence wasn't found might have been that in contravention of the ceasefire agreement for the first Gulf War, Sadaam Hussein wasn't allowing the weapons inspectors full access? Ten DEA agents couldn't find a join at Tommy Chong's house, as long as he got to decide what search areas were off limits.



Quote:
"of great significance, is that many proscribed weapons and items are not accounted for. To take an example, a document which Iraq provided suggested to us that some 1,000 tons of chemical agent were unaccounted for. One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist; however, that possibility is also not excluded."


-Hans Blix, 2003
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Quote:
a reasonable person might believe...

...that someone who really wanted to know the truth would give the weapons inspectors the time they requested to finish the job. But instead Bush lied about the imminence of the danger and decided to incinerate innocent Iraqis.

Some commentary on the recent pathetic reports designed to deflect blame for the thoughtless plunging of the mid-east into the chaotic nightmare that it is now:
https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2014/......qi-wmds/
LobowolfXXX
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If only Lucy would have given Charlie Brown one more chance to kick the ball, it would have been fine.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
a reasonable person might believe...

... lied about the imminence of the danger ...

Yes, a very key point some keep ignoring.
Make America Great Again! - Trump in 2020 ... "We're a capitalistic society. I go into business, I don't make it, I go bankrupt. They're not going to bail me out. I've been on welfare and food stamps. Did anyone help me? No." - Craig T. Nelson, actor.
landmark
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If only Lucy would have given Charlie Brown one more chance to kick the ball, it would have been fine.

Lucy didn't end up with hundreds of thousands dead and a situation so bad now, there may be no solution whatsoever.

Amazing how the talking heads who supported the chaos and destruction still get to continue their punditry despite the absolute disaster the policies they supported created.
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Amazing how some of the right wing news outlets are purposely misstating what the New York Times article actually says.

How quickly some forget the facts regarding ACTUAL WMDs and not rusted remnants of old weaponry:

http://www.therightperspective.org/2010/......in-iraq/
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
a reasonable person might believe...

... lied about the imminence of the danger ...

Yes, a very key point some keep ignoring.


Just as others keep ignoring the fact that we didn't know whether or not there were WMD in Iraq, and we didn't know specifically because of Sadaam Hussein's actions.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Amazing how some of the right wing news outlets are purposely misstating what the New York Times article actually says.

How quickly some forget the facts regarding ACTUAL WMDs and not rusted remnants of old weaponry:

http://www.therightperspective.org/2010/......in-iraq/


It's also amazing how some people translate "No WMD were found in Iraq" to "No WMD were in Iraq."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
a reasonable person might believe...

... lied about the imminence of the danger ...

Yes, a very key point some keep ignoring.


Just as others keep ignoring the fact that we didn't know whether or not there were WMD in Iraq, and we didn't know specifically because of Sadaam Hussein's actions.


Hans Blix was fully qualified and was well placed to make the determination that there were no WMDs in Iraq. The Bush and Blair administrations apparently worked hard to undermine Blix, but Blix had the facts on his side.

It is at best lame to claim that there was not 100% certainty. There was excellent evidence and it was publicly dismissed by leaders with none.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, balducci wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, landmark wrote:
Quote:
a reasonable person might believe...

... lied about the imminence of the danger ...

Yes, a very key point some keep ignoring.


Just as others keep ignoring the fact that we didn't know whether or not there were WMD in Iraq, and we didn't know specifically because of Sadaam Hussein's actions.


Hans Blix was fully qualified and was well placed to make the determination that there were no WMDs in Iraq. The Bush and Blair administrations apparently worked hard to undermine Blix, but Blix had the facts on his side.

It is at best lame to claim that there was not 100% certainty. There was excellent evidence and it was publicly dismissed by leaders with none.


If he was "fully qualified," one wonders why Blix was making "at best lame" statements as late as 2003, the year we went to war in March.

Quote:
"of great significance, is that many proscribed weapons and items are not accounted for. To take an example, a document which Iraq provided suggested to us that some 1,000 tons of chemical agent were unaccounted for. One must not jump to the conclusion that they exist; however, that possibility is also not excluded."


-Hans Blix, 2003
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 15, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Amazing how some of the right wing news outlets are purposely misstating what the New York Times article actually says.

How quickly some forget the facts regarding ACTUAL WMDs and not rusted remnants of old weaponry:

http://www.therightperspective.org/2010/......in-iraq/


It's also amazing how some people translate "No WMD were found in Iraq" to "No WMD were in Iraq."


Obviously, there is no question that at one point in time there were WMDs in Iraq. The problem is that NONE were found after we invaded-a fact that has been repeatedly acknowledged by members of the Bush administration and President Bush himself. In other words, our purported reason for invading and ignoring the request to allow more time for the UN mission to complete its investigation, was without merit. Finding remnants of useless weaponry from a decade before hardly constitutes a vindication of the claim that active WMDs were being stockpiled by Hussein.

But I suppose that as long as there is history, there will be those who seek to rewrite it.
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