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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » APPS-alutely » » An important discussion as apps for mentalism move forward (PLEASE READ) (94 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Doc_Z
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I had this idea before either of you.


...nah, just kidding.
Tim Cavendish
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, juggernought wrote:
If John felt it was important to ask Angelo initially, and even offer him some money for it (before retracting that offer), I can only assume that John knew in his heart that it was Angelo's decision to make.


By asking, John B was acting according to magic's established protocols, which give credit and respect to creators while also allowing advancement of the field, with the expectation that Angelo would similarly observe that protocol.

Bob Cassidy lays out the standard response to such a request:
Quote:
Personally, I've never refused permission to use one of my ideas PROVIDED permission is requested, credit is given, and the new creation is significantly different, rather than just an obvious variation.


Angelo does not appear to be acting in accord with that protocol.
John Born
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Guys - this isn't about Angelo or the lockscreen. As mentioned before I created two methods to achieve what I want that are more deceptive than duplicating the lockscreen, before even starting this thread. Ideally the topic is whether duplicating core functions of the smartphone, as well as the input options listed earlier are fair game for everyone, assuming the effect offers the community something new.
juggernought
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Tim, What nonsense! So the protocol is to let anyone have something simply because they ask permission in the way you set out above? Asking someone for permission is more than a mere formality.

And what about offering to pay? Is that a mere formality too? Or does that not suggest to you that John, unlike you, actually initially recognised the importance of permission?

I find it funny how you lay out your views as if they were a sort of law: 'protocols', 'acting in accord with that protocol', 'standard response' etc Creators are entitled to respect (which even you have said in your above post), and it is clearly up to them to respond to requests how they see fit. They need not respond in accordance with your tin-pot test you have based on one creator's approach.
mastermindreader
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Just to be clear- I don't ALWAYS grant permission. Note the proviso that I mentioned in my last post.
Slim King
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, John Born wrote:
Guys - this isn't about Angelo or the lockscreen. As mentioned before I created two methods to achieve what I want that are more deceptive than duplicating the lockscreen, before even starting this thread. Ideally the topic is whether duplicating core functions of the smartphone, as well as the input options listed earlier are fair game for everyone, assuming the effect offers the community something new.

NO!!!!!
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
juggernought
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Bob, I would be astonished if you always did! Your approach certainly sounds reasonable - it was just that Tim seemed to be twisting its meaning around and advocating its use as a universal 'protocol'.

And John, to pretend this thread is not about Angelo is disingenuous. I do agree that the thread is about discussing whether a creator's input methods should be used by others without their permission. But to answer that question, we must look at the situation from the creator's point of view. And since Angelo has been facing (from you) the exact problem you set out, his views are crucial to answering your question generally.
Galileo
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Man there goes my chance to pitch Bob my Place and Name routine that uses a little bit of his prior work.
John Born
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Hi Juggernought -

Was partly inspired by Angelo, not about him. Only reason we are even talking about him is because he showed up here to discuss details that were meant to be between he and I.

JB
Genie Gene
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John you said you came here to make sure the community was on your side. Read the responses and count the "likes", the majority disapprove. Since you're asking, I can tell you that I also disapprove of your position as well as your behavior.

You won't be moving forward with this, since gaining approval from the Café users was a prerequisite. Unless you've changed your mind about being the "bad guy".

"I and a few others feel like our hands are tied until we get feedback from you, as we are hesitant to move forward until we know that the general population of the community is on the same page. Would hate to be the “bad guy.”"

-JB
John Born
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Hi Genie -

For the third time, I do not want or need to use the password lockscreen. Please, actually read what I have written before responding with a position telling me what I will or will not do. With that said, I and most others very much do consider his and most other input methods to be general use, obvious tools to achieve a wide variety effects on this medium, and fair game for everyone.

Best,

JB
CThomas
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I just have one very small point to make to all this. I think it's a serious mistake to start saying that John's decision to discuss this issue with a particular web application developer, or to raise it on here for discussion, creates an inference that he knows he's wrong, or that he recognizes the ultimate decision belongs to someone else. It seems to me that it's in everyone's interest to promote advance discussion of these sorts of issues rather than just put something out and have the discussion after the fact. If somebody has that discussion, it seems to me it should be viewed as an admirable attempt to discuss the issues in recognition of the fact that somebody else might disagree with you rather than some sort of admission. (Of course, in practice, it's ***ed if you do and ***ed if you don't, because I'm sure that if someone just put out an application using a pre-existing input method then there would have been similarly indignant cries that it should have been discussed and vetted in advance. So you really can't then turn around and use it against someone when they do have that advance conversation.) Of course, it sounds like all this is academic in this particular instance since it sounds like John doesn't even intend to rely on the disputed input method and is just raising a general point for discussion.
CThomas
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I guess the site viewed that expression as profanity. In case the sentence is now incomprehensible, the parenthetical should say "darned if you do and darned if you don't . . . .").
John Born
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It would be great if the three app developers that are taking part in this discussion list what they feel are the techniques and input methods that are fair game. Have yet to see a logical argument against any of the points made by the many contributing here that understand my point (and no, three guys liking posts over and over that simply scream "mine" is not a logical argument).

Why do some feel they get to pick and choose what input method is and isn't claimed, when they all are utilizing or duplicating core functionality laid out by Apple? At this point in time, most input approaches have been used on some level in magic, and all of them on my list have been used by other communities - so no matter what a new developer chooses to use, their input is very likely going to be the same, or some sort of variant of something that already exists. I feel that with such limitations we should be allowed to choose whatever input method suits our desired effect so that we can develop what we consider to be the best version of an app possible. I see absolutely no point whatsoever in adding unnecesary process to an input method for the sake of originality in the way information is secretly sent to the app. I already started the list earlier. Seems like you think the lockscreen, one of the more obvious ones in the list, doesn't belong. What others should we also avoid, and why are these different than the techniques left on the final list?

JB
Angelo Carbone
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John I have every right to use my app as an example as this was the whole reason you started this thread. It's the WAY the passcode screen is used that I am against. For example, there is another app that uses the passcode screen too but the spectator does not enter the passcode, the magician has to do it secretly. Also the code entered in his app is exactly what the prediction is. Therefore I said ok to him when he asked as it was just about different. You contacted me saying you wanted to get the spectator to enter the code too in your app and disguise the passcode number as well and this is why I had to decline. Its not necessarily the passcode screen I am against but the justification, context, handling and structure I am against being used. That's copying. If a smartphone is a deck of cards and handling the cards is the same as tapping the screen, it's the MOVES that one has to protect and respect those that have come up with a move before. By your logic, just because something is obvious and anyone could have thought of it before then anyone can use it. That's flawed logic. Btw you can't change your story and say you don't want or need to use the passcode screen because a) that's the whole reason you started this thread and b) you would not stop messaging me about using it so you obviously wanted to use it. If you just accepted my answer and reason then life could move on.

As for other developers suggesting what is fair play as regards to inputting info, of course tapping, swyping, tilting etc are all fair game but it is how they are used and combined and disguised that we are protective about. You told me you are new to the app world so please learn from developer's experience. Thank you!
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
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Notion of Motion: http://www.risingcard.co.uk
John Born
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Hi Angelo -

Typing a passcode into a passcode lockscreen is the exact same as swiping from the initial swipescreen. As magicians we must look as what Apple have given us, how people have to interact with that design, and duplicate those actions so that our inputs are hidden within the actions normal people do every day. There are only a few of those logical interactions by design, and simply duplicating them does not put you on a pedestal as an original creator. Anyone examining options in this way will easily consider both of these methods. If you were the first to hire a programmer to duplicate it, great am happy to give you that credit. However expecting to have the ability to deny others from considering it as an option as well is flawed. Recognition as a creator can sometimes be a product of construction and layering, when we take old ideas and put them together in new sequences that break into fresh territory (typically the benefits of the new construction are making the effect more direct, cleaner, or gives us extra opportunities that were not previously there). Ideally, garnering recognition as a creator would be accomplished through developing a new and exciting experience for an audience.

I wrote you because it was the first method that I created for the effect I designed, and the app developer I approached told me that you had already used the method, and seemed a bit protective of it. So I wrote you, expecting no problems whatsoever since it was obvious I had a completely different vision. When you said no, I asked if you would consider taking a cut of the profits if that changes your perspective. Not that I felt like you deserved a cut (if you talk with this designer you will very much know that I did not lol), but wasn't a big deal to me as the money is a non-issue. I just wanted to the developer to feel like he could move forward without having to deal with petty magician squabbles. When you declined this is when I stepped back for a day to try to see it from your perspective. I came up with two methods that were better, but was also a bit put off, so decided to ask other members of the community what they thought were and weren't general tools in app development.

If you want to use your effect as an example, I am happy to bite. The input method is simple duplication of the obvious, the construction is simply the option you chose (of course not original - many, many pieces of code have been written to cause a phone to text), the layering is a basic regurgitation of information (think of something, name it, look I can reveal it), and the effect is the biggest fail of all four as a creator, as out of all of the options possible you chose to revealing a piece of information that people hardly even relate to (a chosen playing card, in a way that is more convoluted and process driven than the average basic reveals offered to beginners in their first trip to the magic shop). Yay Magic SMS.

Back to the list - taps, swipes, tilts. Not a lot of options keep them coming.
Angelo Carbone
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You are unbelievable John! Again by insulting my app because it reveals a playing card that "no one can relate to" is also insulting about 90% of creators of other apps that also reveal a card. You know how to make yourself popular don't you? Convoluted method? You type a question and get an answer in a text. Maybe that is too convoluted for someone like you.

I have not degraded your app idea or insulted it but if you want to play that card so be it. So because your app idea doesn't reveal a playing card it makes it better than everyone else's app? How very arrogant of you. Your calendar idea and birthday idea is so impossible right? No one could possibly think as an alternative method that you simply facebook searched someone to get the info?

Keep going John. You are showing your true colours.
The Gift: Trick of the Year 2017
My YouTube Channel: http://www.youtube.com/user/themagicinventor
Magic SMS 2: http://apple.co/2nuxewr
Notion of Motion: http://www.risingcard.co.uk
John Born
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You are arguing ownership based on being an original creator. I am simply telling it like it is. And it is cute that you are exploring the revelation of one of my effects before it is published, while ranting about ethics. Keep going. Still way out of your league Carbone.
IAIN
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Could one of you guys create an app where it sends electric shocks to another phone? Then you could wait til one of you goes to sleep or having a poo and then zap him...
Slim King
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ROTFLMAO ... Love this thread.....
Quit stealing John....
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
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