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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » APPS-alutely » » An important discussion as apps for mentalism move forward (PLEASE READ) (94 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Exitmat
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I know who the people on here are, and what they've created, Angelo. (Badger, for instance, has created the absolute best swami I've ever seen.) That's part of the brotherhood I suppose. Sorry you're not a part of it.

Anyhow, you might want to brush up on those reading comprehension skills as you completely misinterpreted what I said, and it was through no lack of clarity on my part. Or should I say you "created" an entire meaning that wasn't even there. Maybe you can write an app that misinterprets speech patterns so you can claim to have invented misinterpretations?
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, IAIN wrote:
I think if someone first came up with the idea of a dummy lock screen in a certain way, yes - that would make them the creator/owner of that idea... if people wanted to use his/her method - then they'd need permission...if they come up with an alternative way, then a credit would be fair...


Agreed.
juggernought
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John you wrote on here that you have a lot of respect for Angelo and yet you say you used him as an example to make fun of and branded him a petty child. This just shows me I can't believe anything you write and now I have lost my respect for you.
Tim Cavendish
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Quote:
On Oct 27, 2014, Angelo Carbone wrote:
Its about protecting one's work.

Actually, that's only half the story.

Here's the thing: What's best for one creator isn't necessarily best for the field as a whole.

That's why real world intellectual property laws seek to balance TWO interests: (1) protection for the creators AND (2) progress/development in the field.

That's why real world terms of protection for inventions expire, and require publication of secrets and eventual forfeit of control: so the field may advance.

If your app is 4 years old already, that's ancient in computer years. Congratulations! You've had a good long run! BUT in tech terms you're a dinosaur, and there's a meteor on the way.

See those small, annoying furry mammals down by your feet?

They are the future.
John Born
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Hi Juggernought -

I started this thread to have a general discussion. Some of the inspiration for it was due to my interactions with Angelo. Even though I did not at all feel that he was justified in his position, I moved past it and developed other ways of achieving what I needed. However, for the general discussion, none of those details needed to be shared, and I kept all of the details in private, just as they should be.

Even after he showed up and tried to just make the discussion about him, I wanted this to stay on topic, and get a feel for what people felt are general tools of app development for magic.

I am not here to make friends. I am introducing a discussion for a logical debate I find concerning. Once I was accused of trying to lift anything, I saw this in a bit different light, and so decided to make quick work of you for going there. And thank you for making it so easy for me. So no I am not surprised that you did you enjoy that experience.

I think that will conclude my contributions to this thread. All of my points are laid out nicely and are easy to understand. Even for the computer guys.

All the best,

JB
Badger
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If I buy a telescope tonight and discover a new planet tomorrow does that mean that the planet is mine along with all of its resources and minerals. Does that mean that I can send a probe to that planet get its golden silver and platinum bring it back and sell it here? So who will own that planet? the makers of the telescope? Well I own it? Well the most powerful country on the planet take it from me? How will it all play out.

John I really hope you go with your intuition and instincts and put this app out on the market for everyone to enjoy it because I'm going to tell you personally what I have seen. I have seen people buy a magic affect and fall in love with it and do it every day and then talk trash about the creator. Magic is a very political place just like anything else I suppose. You'll never make everyone happy all you can do is the best that you can do to contribute to the world of magic. Just look at how many three fly routines are out there and how many fourth dimensional telepathy routines are out there. If you break any affect down to its lowest level you will find that there are probably hundreds of people behind the creation just make the app produce it give as much credit as you can and know in your heart that you did the best that you could do and you wanted to share your excitement enjoy with the community.
John Born
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Quote:
So no I am not surprised that you did you enjoy that experience.


So no I am not surprised that you did *not* enjoy that experience.

Anyway, for everyone else thank you for your thoughts on both sides. Will be interesting to see what happens as things move forward in this genre.

JB
Badger
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One more point I would like to make nobody here on this board or anywhere else really knows who came up with that idea with the app first okay nobody can say for 100% certainty. And to let you know there are a lot of apps on the market and on the black market that allow you to do a lot of crazy things and a lot of concepts that I've seen in magic apps stem straight from apps that will be used to steal information to ease drop to steal people's credit cards drivers license info etc. those who know me on this form know exactly what I'm talking about. I have seen apps out there that will make your eyes water and that could easily be used in the field of magic for mentalist.

So Angelo if you really think that you are a creator of an app idea I would really check into that.
Angelo Carbone
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On Oct 28, 2014, Badger wrote:
So Angelo if you really think that you are a creator of an app idea I would really check into that.


I don't understand what you mean. You want to know which app I created and if its original? I can say with 101% certainty that no one used the method I did for my app before I used it if that is what you are asking.
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John Born
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Badger - I see your point, but may argue that even when a concept, principle, or piece of technology is developed in a different market (non magic), we as a community should still credit the first person that utilizes that concept, principle, or piece of technology in a magical effect and introduces it to the magic community for that purpose.
Pasteboard Alchemist
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, Angelo Carbone wrote:
I don't understand what you mean. You want to know which app I created and if its original? I can say with 101% certainty that no one used the method I did for my app before I used it if that is what you are asking.


Hi Angelo. I'm not looking to throw fuel on the fire here or the like, but I think Badger is saying that the concept of displaying a dummy lock screen, keeping the phone active (so it doesn't actually lock) but dims out until a third-party person attempts to enter a code, at which time the app is triggered to do something may have been in development before you (independently) thought to use it for a magic effect.

That being said, I've had an app on my phone that does that since mid-2010 called "Big Brother Camera Security" that displays a dummy lock screen, keeps the phone active (so it doesn't actually lock) but dims out until a third-party person attempts to enter a code, at which time the app is triggered to do something.

My intent here isn't an "A ha! someone developed using that as a method for capturing information/triggering actions in the app before and/or at the same time you did!" It's simply to say: this has existed in at least a few apps, one of which I've been using for about 4 1/2 years. Are you the first to apply it to magic? I imagine so. But, as a general method, it was out there.

I wish everybody luck on their respective apps. The more creative effects that are out there, the more everybody wins.
JanForster
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, Tim Cavendish wrote:
That's why real world intellectual property laws seek to balance TWO interests: (1) protection for the creators AND (2) progress/development in the field.

That's why real world terms of protection for inventions expire, and require publication of secrets and eventual forfeit of control: so the field may advance.


That's basically the whole story - as long as credit is given. Without that agreement there wouldn't be any progress, nowhere. And if John asked this question only, that's he answer. Jan
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mastermindreader
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Personally, I've never refused permission to use one of my ideas PROVIDED permission is requested, credit is given, and the new creation is significantly different, rather than just an obvious variation.
Angelo Carbone
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, Pasteboard Alchemist wrote:

That being said, I've had an app on my phone that does that since mid-2010 called "Big Brother Camera Security" that displays a dummy lock screen, keeps the phone active (so it doesn't actually lock) but dims out until a third-party person attempts to enter a code, at which time the app is triggered to do something.


Hi thanks! I had a look at the app you suggested but I don't think it is a fair comparison. It does not simulate the real iphone lock screen and passcode screen. It is just a generic security keypad. Also, my app does not require a third party to trigger the app, it all happens automatically on a timer. It's not based or similar to it all but I understand your point.Smile
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John Born
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On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Personally, I've never refused permission to use one of my ideas PROVIDED permission is requested, credit is given, and the new creation is significantly different, rather than just an obvious variation.


Hi Bob - am glad you mentioned this. When I contacted Angelo I sincerely expected to hear "Great to hear from you man. Cool idea! Yeah I can see guys having fun with that. I can also see how lockscreen concept was thought of as a solution to make it happen. If you don't mind, please credit me with the lockscreen idea - I think I'm the first to use that in magic, and seems to work pretty well! Let me know when it is finished."

Is really the same answer most of us give when we are approached by people with a different vision on ideas that we decided to make public, regardless if they were independently created or directly inspired.

JB
IAIN
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, John Born wrote:
Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Personally, I've never refused permission to use one of my ideas PROVIDED permission is requested, credit is given, and the new creation is significantly different, rather than just an obvious variation.


Hi Bob - am glad you mentioned this. When I contacted Angelo I sincerely expected to hear "Great to hear from you man. Cool idea! Yeah I can see guys having fun with that. I can also see how lockscreen concept was thought of as a solution to make it happen. If you don't mind, please credit me with the lockscreen idea - I think I'm the first to use that in magic, and seems to work pretty well! Let me know when it is finished."

Is really the same answer most of us give when we are approached by people with a different vision on ideas that we decided to make public, regardless if they were independently created or directly inspired.

JB

so in all honesty, is this really just down to Angelo saying "no"? as in, you were expecting a yes, and when you didn't get it, you felt that you should start a thread on the subject? (not saying that's wrong - just trying to understand everything properly)..
John Born
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Hi Iain -

Please reread my posts. This was already clearly addressed. Was an attempt to understand what can and can't be used and / or claimed as input methods when trying to introduce independent effects for the community. Am still concerned at how much I was having to dance around in my attempt to use concepts based on the core functionality of the phone because people felt like they were owners of basic approaches and obvious solutions.

Best,

JB
magicmarcuk
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Quote:
On Oct 28, 2014, John Born wrote:
Hi Iain -

Please reread my posts. This was already clearly addressed. Was an attempt to understand what can and can't be used and / or claimed as input methods when trying to introduce independent effects for the community. Am still concerned at how much I was having to dance around in my attempt to use concepts based on the core functionality of the phone because people felt like they were owners of basic approaches and obvious solutions.

Best,

JB



John, I'm curious here, but do you have intention of listening to Angelo's decision? And if you don't feel that it's his decision to make, then why ask in the first place?
Hello! I make magic apps, such as WikiTest, Earworm, Xeno and WebFX.
Badger
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Overall whose decision is it?
juggernought
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If John felt it was important to ask Angelo initially, and even offer him some money for it (before retracting that offer), I can only assume that John knew in his heart that it was Angelo's decision to make.
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