|
|
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] | ||||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
There is some discussion in the Café spooky threads below about this. Someone mentioned I should also post here as it's perfectly suited for Gospel magic. It's a routine based on a true story of inspiration and tolerance with a positive message in a darker dramatic theme (which can be toned down obviously). The nice thing is this utility prop can be used in very uplifting routines about religion. It's not about tricks unless you present them in that context. The PDF explains how to use visualization to achieve more effective presentations which may be used in other areas of your performance.
http://alchemy-moon.freeforums.net/threa......pendulum It is currently sold out (was a very small run) but if you are interested feel free to PM and I will add you to the list (first come first served type deal). I will most likely make a "very" limited small run for January. These are not mass produced the aging and construction is very difficult and time consuming. Thanks and much peace and happiness to you and your loved ones.
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
MagicBus Inner circle Kalamazoo, Michigan 2869 Posts |
Perfectly suited for Gospel magic? I have been associated with the FCM since about 1970, have no clue how anything from the above web site could be used for an evangelical, Bible based Gospel illustration. Would be quite an enormous stretch in my judgment, would have to be totally disassociated with the information on the site as to the cross, it's use, background, etc..
So yes, I suppose one could buy just about any secular product and then throw away anything associated that came with it, and then go back to square one and create a "Gospel" illustration using it. I don't remember Andre' Kole ever trying to make the leap of using his head chopper to make a Gospel point. I do remember one Gospel magician that did- tying in a foam coffee cup/puncture effect with the Christian's proper response to "fear." Truly cringe worthy. |
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
Thanks for your response Magicbus you are of course welcome to your opinion.
We are not talking about using other things from the website. Unless people sit and google during your performance and happen to find it. If they do then you have bigger issues to worry about. The routine I use is mostly based on a true story about the first catholic and protestant bible differences and the lack of tolerance regarding those beliefs (would that be an application for gospel magic?). This presentation should end in a positive message but its up to you. It's all explained in the 8000+ word performance manual. When I used the term "perfect suited for gospel magic", I meant any magic with religious overtones, content or to highlight a story from the bible. This was created for bizarrists, many do not perform magic tricks they are storytellers/readers etc.. most like to make up their own stuff. The cross as a pendulum is well suited to create uplifting creative interpretation and presentations only limited by your imagination (but you should wish to develop your pendulum work and I'm not sure what experience you have with them?). Please remember this is first and foremost a "utility prop pendulum with many uses" a head chopper is not fair analogy as that can ONLY be used to chop heads Pendulums are not magic tricks and maybe that is where the confusion may be? I never intended this "utility prop" to be a routine, call it a bonus. The in depth audience management, visualization and guidance techniques alone have much value outside of the routine, to be used to enhance your pendulum and performance skills. My routine only serves as a "basic template" to illustrate the potential in the style that I like (you can change the routine and use the theory as that alone has value, call it an extra bonus). The pendulum looks like an authentic cross relic and currently there are none on the market like this that I know of. There was a demand from bizarrists but it's obviously suited for crossover in any way you see fit. BTW no one says you have to imply it's a coffin nail it looks like a weighted end attached to a cross. This "utility prop" is not meant for those who are unable to think of a use for a cross pendulum, or feel it is too much of a stretch to connect it to the bible, resurrection, indifference and tolerance stories which the bible is full of them. It's no different from the thousands of other pendulums that do not typically come with a routine except this looks and feels like a real relic and has a beautiful cross that is ready made for any gospel illustration you feel would not be cringe worthy. It deserved an example routine because I think it is more than a cheap new age pendulum. The pendulum alone is the value of the offering the routine is secondary. Magicbus if after that explanation you still are unable to envision how a cross pendulum may be used to represent a story from the bible then I certainly will not try to change anyone mind. But it is a beautiful magical looking cross don't you think? You are the magician it's up to you to create the real magick. Light or dark magic I won't judge, but it is that versatile and that is a positive thing.
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
MagicBus Inner circle Kalamazoo, Michigan 2869 Posts |
Still unknown to me what any of the above has to do with the stated purposes/organization/events/goals/objectives/meetings/conventions of the FCM. www.FCM.org Oh well, sorry again, the above post probably better placed in another area of The Magic Café'. Just my two cents worth. "Remember, FCM subject matter only" I think it states in the topic heading...
|
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
Magicbus this content does meet the criteria of the subject matter.
Which states: "WHAT DO WE DO? We teach how to use the visual illustrations and develop talent for Gospel presentation using sleight of hand, optical illusion, ventriloquism, puppets, balloons, clowning, juggling, storytelling, and other visual arts as they develop for this one cause visually promoting the Word of God. " Are you saying a magic trick cross pendulum is not capable of satisfying the above criteria? Magicbus please answer in what way exactly? It does aid in teaching how to use the visual illustrations (a cross) for Gospel presentation (of any kind), using storytelling and visually promoting the Word of God. This has also been introduced to other areas of the Café. I just thought someone may find a use and wish to know about it here as it is doubtful you would look into spooky. In the very least be a little more accepting to advance this area of magic using alternative routines and methods. If you wish, report it to the mods and if they agree with you they will gladly remove it. Hopefully someone will see the light...
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
And the OP topic for this thread was "you know the dark arts and stuff as a joke. I showed him a couple of things and blew his mind. we laughed, he called me a witch and said that they will burn me tonight.
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
themagiciansapprentice Inner circle Essex, UK 1381 Posts |
FCM matters
are about meetings etc. Not about this kind of subject matter.
Have wand will travel! Performing children's magic in the UK for Winter 2014 and Spring 2015.
|
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
Ha ya well good luck with the "etc." part whatever that means. I disagree the mandate is clearly stated as I reiterated. Like I said have it removed. I see beliefs are not tolerated here, what a surprise, not much has changed in history. I guess it's true, you can't really meet and talk about religion in mixed company unless it agrees with you. What religion can I discuss with you to join your FMC club or is it closed?
Which states: "WHAT DO WE DO? We teach how to use the visual illustrations and develop talent for Gospel presentation using sleight of hand, optical illusion, ventriloquism, puppets, balloons, clowning, juggling, storytelling, and other visual arts as they develop for this one cause visually promoting the Word of God. " Are you saying a magic trick cross pendulum is not capable of satisfying the above criteria? themagiciansapprentice please answer in what way exactly? If you don't meet to talk about magic that pertains to God what do you meet about exactly? Please enlighten me. This is insane I think I am at home here
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
Signor Blitz Elite user 419 Posts |
Hello Darkness and MagicBus!
I was reading the dialog between the two of you and thought I would (respectfully) jump in. I understand the differing perspectives, it seem where some confusion (which is leading to disagreement) may be coming from is that there is one conversation with two different definitions of Gospel magic. Darkness - Unrelated to this particular conversation, but I wanted to complement you on creating a newly manufactured item that looks like a relic. I always appreciate the workmanship needed for quality reproductions. That being said, you had provided your definition of gospel magic, which is --> "When I used the term 'perfect suited for gospel magic', I meant any magic with religious overtones, content or to highlight a story from the bible." There is Gospel with a capitol G and gospel with a lowercase g (yes Virginia, there is a difference ) . The definition you provided is very important and insightful and is most defiantly gospel with a lowercase "g". As by your definition, there is no distinction regarding specifically what religion. I am not speaking about specific denominational differences, but a larger range of world religions and even cults. MagicBus is speaking about Gospel magic (with uppercase "G"). The word Gospel in this case has a very specific definition which is, The Good News of Jesus Christ. It is all about a relationship with the God of Creation through His Son, Jesus Christ. The Gospel performer is not talking about religion (which is what man does for God), but rather what God does for man by providing a means to a relationship with Him through His (undeserved)Grace that came through His Son. A Gospel performer/speaker is focused on this very specific message that accurately represents God's transforming Word of Grace and Salvation. There are many historic situations from history, church history and the reformation that would make for good story telling but these are quite different from sharing God's Word - and are not the focus of a Gospel performer. Many (if not the majority) of the folks involved in Gospel magic would not consider themselves a magician, magic hobbyist or enthusiast - rather they are folks involved in ministry on some level, and use "magic tricks" as a form of visual communication - as they would use puppets, chalk art and even flannel-graphs. The various creative principles involved in the art of magic and principles of showmanship and historical background of effects is simply not there. Many would have no idea what a "magic trick pendulum" is all about. Historically, the pendulum has been a devise to give the appearance of communicating with the dead, the "other side" - "ghost" - "lost souls" --> This specifically is mentioned in the Bible and is not a good thing. It is a dicey proposition at best (more likely, career ending) for a Gospel performer to do anything that may give the appearance of communicating with the dead or are aided by "unseen forces" to arrive at a correct answer. Even if done as an exposé where the methods are reveled, it is a difficult thing to pull off without creating stumbling blocks for some in the audience. All this being said, just because something sounds religious (or has religious overtones) does not automatically make it Gospel. I too am having a difficult time visualizing the "magic trick pendulum" as an effective tool for sharing the Good News of Christ. That being said, I am not dismissing the possibilities of this prop but rather I welcome anyone who may have some ideas for an accurate application(s) that would pull meaning from Scripture without misrepresenting His Word with the aid of the prop in question. I hope this post is received with all the grace and humility in which it was written. |
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
Perfect thanks for your polite response and time.
It could be again stated it is the job of the pastor or magician who is developing their story or script to consider value or have the skills to create a use for this prop. If people are not at this level or are unable to realize a way this could be used or do not wish to discuss that is ok. Where the problem is when they dismiss it for all. Even though it's a strech to routine it or a challenge for them to understand how a pendulum could be accepted doesn't mean it can't, it just means they don't know how or has less applications. This actually could be a learning opportunity if some are incline. I would be happy to discuss offline. I already have ideas and believe you could advance the message with more than balloons and puppets but you would have to be open to discussion and it looks like it's a closed door. No worries just trying to introduce new ideas without getting shut out even if that means a learning curve also on my side. It would require patience and understanding at the very least. Tough crowd...
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
Signor Blitz Elite user 419 Posts |
When a person understands the needs of their target audience, then the crowd is not so tough Matter of fact, you will find them more than generous, gracious and welcoming.
God's Word is easy in that it is consistent - what is tough is His ever changing creation. It is important for a presenter/speaker to stretch and learn new ways to communicate with society or run the risk of becoming irrelevant. However, God's message is always absolute. Using visual metaphors to contextualize a Gospel message for an adult audience is my area of interest and study. I would love to hear some of your ideas and application thought line (as well as share). You are in good company as there are many who run into the same difficulties with balloons and puppets as well |
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
I’m no expert regarding the bible so please excuse me, but I’m a fairly decent performer and speaker that can relate to adults. I would assume people here all have these two qualities? That is more important when you are a story teller than a magician doing tricks which does require some skill but it can be minimal. I understand why you do simple kids stuff but that is defiantly not helping you connect with adults. Let’s look at this from that viewpoint.
The OP stated someone joked he must be a witch and should burn. This is relevant to the thinking of many people, while others get that its entertainment. There will always be someone who is offended and others will agree that it doesn’t take much to offend someone. So where does that leave us if we can’t please everyone? It would seem that many would take the path of least resistance to make their point, while avoiding offending anyone by giving it a Mary Poppins spin with balloons and puppets (no offence just using it as an example of a very safe vehicle). This approach, context or framing will certainly not widen your net or advance the art of storytelling and engagement with respect to appealing to adults and satisfying your goals. If you are focused on kids and/or family the parents are the role models. They too must be engaged to help re-enforce the teachings. If you lose them it’s an uphill battle. I ask the question how are you currently performing to adults (there are many that are single or have no kids)? A good point was made to be relevant you have to change with your audience. People are not unaware of the differences of the bible and living in today’s day and age, the message has not changed even though they may have strong beliefs one way or the other. If you do not accept that, then the silly magic tricks and puppet message may fall on polite deaf ears. This isn’t the 50’s anymore it’s a much more graphic world and accepting world. Like a modern cartoon it also has adult concepts and humor that often fly's over the kids heads as we need to entertain the adults. They have to sit and watch too and after and often are paying. You need to build credibility and interest when performing for a sophisticated adult audience. Why not be real and tell it like it is and come at it from a different modern perspective? If for example pendulums are frown upon in the bible (and you want to use one as a magic prop or routine) great use that to demonstrate what that means and teach a lesson with it. However, you need to have a basic understanding of the workings of a pendulum or this may not resonate with you. The pendulum works on the subconscious level much like the choices you make in life without you realizing it. The pendulum is supposed to tell you the truth based on what you really believe and feel. God does things for us based on salvation, justification, sanctification? Why not use the cross to represent salvation and the coffin nail to represent d@mnation which end do you hold or have held in life and how did you change your ways? No trick all story. e.g. present the pendulum as an authentic relic (in the form of entertainment). Unveil it theatrically and take the audience on a guided visualization back in time tell a story to demonstrate the beliefs of the past (what unholy meant for example with respect to objects) and make a correlation to bring it up to the present what is believed today. Discuss the sub conscience and its influences have not changed but education and environmental impact has. Discuss the bible and how faith may not change in respect or what God can do for us. Use the pendulum as an example don't use it to talk to the dead. This is not the current belief of what a pendulum is used for. Discuss what makes up someone sub conscious and beliefs and how to be available to receiving what God may do for them by understanding physiology and psychology. Who doesn't want to see an interesting relic? This could be a more intellectual approach for adult engagement. That was just off the top of my head. If we are creative story tellers great! Why not have an authentic looking prop if that is all you ever use it for. An interesting artifact with a history one that is only limited to your presentation. BTW it also reacts to a m@gnet and electronic c@il which is self-working. Imagine putting it on a surface and it moves or gets throw off the table (no skill involved). I think that would be very cool, interesting and ready for any story or routine about what God does for you. Maybe you can tell me what you currently perform and the stories you tell so I have a better idea of your challenges, to help you be more relevant and current while appealing to adults using mature themes that will connect with them. BTW there are none currently available for sale but I may make a limited run in the future. It’s not a sales pitch more of a possibility to help advance the arts as nothing like this has be tried to my knowledge and I'm all for pushing boundaries and innovating. There is a gem in here somewhere, can you find it? Is it worth discovering or is it easier to dismiss it without working for it. I worked hard to bring this to the magic community and it is very well received I can't believe you have zero use for it. I could find plenty based on casting out negative to get to the positive which is counter intuitive but more interesting to me and I used to make balloon animals..
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
Signor Blitz Elite user 419 Posts |
Hello Darkness my old friend - sorry, I went Simon and Garfunkel on you - lol
Sorry for the delay in getting back with you - Visiting the Magic Café is not something I do on a regular basis - but since we have a thread going, I will make more of an effort. For someone who stated that would like to discuss this offline, you certainly wrote a lot I appreciate the respectful dialogue and thought invested in your post. The best way for me to respond in this format is to repost your post(in quotations marks) and I will place breaks for my thoughts - please remember, humor is humor - I am not attacking you at all - but there are some issues where my perspective is in direct contradiction to yours. PLEASE do not take it as hostel or attacking, just different. Everyone, please keep your hands inside the car until the ride comes to a full and complete stop - LOL Here we go "I’m no expert regarding the bible so please excuse me," Not many are - however, it would be wise to listen to the advice to those who may know more than you, grasshopper. "but I’m a fairly decent performer and speaker that can relate to adults." I trust you are being modest I am happy to hear that you are well socialized and able to relate to other adults. But there is NO correlation between ignorance in Scripture and being able to engage an audience. "I would assume people here all have these two qualities?" Apparently you have not been told what happens when a person assumes "That is more important when you are a story teller than a magician doing tricks which does require some skill but it can be minimal." Agreed, whenever delivering any message – be it product endorsement, curriculum based or in this specific thread – a Gospel message, the message is the primary focus. If not, the message will be lost to the effect and you HAVE NOT DONE YOUR JOB! "I understand why you do simple kids stuff but that is defiantly not helping you connect with adults. Let’s look at this from that viewpoint." I will error on the side of grace and trust that you are using the word “you” as “you understood” and not specifically referencing me. "The OP stated someone joked he must be a witch and should burn. This is relevant to the thinking of many people, while others get that its entertainment." I was unaware of the original post as I jumped in near the end of the conversation between you and Magicbus – that being said, it does give the appearance of an opportune time to plug your prop – even though they are out of stock at the moment. Which reminds me of the classic line of anyone who it pitching – I have a limited supply (and when I run out, I will go out to my car and get another limited supply). "There will always be someone who is offended and others will agree that it doesn’t take much to offend someone. So where does that leave us if we can’t please everyone?" The Gospel is offending – it is a message that contains absolutes and goes against everything the world is trying to sell you – trust me when I say that living a Christian life style is a struggle for living for “self” as opposed to the Creator. We live in a relative, “I am number One”, politically correct society that is narcissistic and broken. In addition to entertaining, my job is to share the reality of Hell, humanities sinful nature and what is meant by a relationship with God through His Son, Jesus Christ. "It would seem that many would take the path of least resistance to make their point, while avoiding offending anyone by giving it a Mary Poppins spin with balloons and puppets (no offence just using it as an example of a very safe vehicle)." Glad you cleared that up – Mary Poppins is cool and sort of hot at the same time I will agree that there are those whose message is a mile wide and only an inch deep. "This approach, context or framing will certainly not widen your net or advance the art of storytelling and engagement with respect to appealing to adults and satisfying your goals. If you are focused on kids and/or family the parents are the role models. They too must be engaged to help re-enforce the teachings. If you lose them it’s an uphill battle." Storytelling and delivering a Gospel message are not the same – not even close. Yes there are principles that can make ones message more effective – but the end game is NOT advancing the art of storytelling – but it IS advancing His Word. "I ask the question how are you currently performing to adults" I trust that you are being sincere but you made me laugh - You’re funny "(there are many that are single or have no kids)?" You have a keen sense of the obvious realistically it goes much deeper than that. "A good point was made to be relevant you have to change with your audience." To keep in context – change regarding the contextual stylization while NOT compromising the message. "People are not unaware of the differences of the bible and living in today’s day and age, the message has not changed even though they may have strong beliefs one way or the other." I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I am not sure if you are referencing cultural differences, historical differences or how a person is to live their life OR possibly referencing the relative approach where people forget that WE are created in God’s image and NOT (what many folks do) when they create their own god in their image in order to justify their inadequacies’, brokenness and sinful nature. "If you do not accept that, then the silly magic tricks and puppet message may fall on polite deaf ears. This isn’t the 50’s anymore it’s a much more graphic world and accepting world." There seems to be an unclear presupposition here. “Graphic” and “accepting” can have many different connotations; I want to make sure I do not take you statement out of context. "Like a modern cartoon it also has adult concepts and humor that often fly's over the kids heads as we need to entertain the adults. They have to sit and watch too and after and often are paying. You need to build credibility and interest when performing for a sophisticated adult audience." The entertainment industry has been doing this for decades. Look at Gilligan’s Island (in the context of the day). Predating that, the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show was geared for adults, much like the modern day Simpsons. Pixar has made a fortune off of this concept – nothing new here, but it is always good to be reminded that we present for multi-generational audiences. "Why not be real and tell it like it is and come at it from a different modern perspective?" How do you define real? You cannot get any “realer” when you are sharing a message of hope to an audience comprised of adults who (not by any choice of their own) share the reality of having to bury one of their children. You cannot get any “realer” when you have an audience who is struggling with relationships, or being unemployed, underemployed, stressing about where to get their next meal. Here is another one, how about being in front of a room full of woman who have a strong distrust for men due to physical and mental abuse - AND you (as a male) have to entertain them, gain their trust and deliver a message of hope to an audience that is literally afraid of you because of your gender. Here is another one, going into a prison where your audience consists of folks who have raped, murdered, and molested and your job is to entertain them AND then share with them that regardless of their past choices, they are loved and forgiveness is there for them. These are my audiences and the audiences of many Gospel speakers and entertainers – “storytelling” (regardless of how theatrically effective) would get the presenter a spanking and sent home, – these are folks who mandate reality – and their eternal soul depends on that. It is apparent you have no idea of the burden of reality a Gospel speaker/entertainer has to live and deal with. Next to this, “advancing the art of storytelling” is really insignificant. "If for example pendulums are frown upon in the bible (and you want to use one as a magic prop or routine) great use that to demonstrate what that means and teach a lesson with it." Here it seems that you are advocating or trying to justify compromise or offering a contradiction. Consistency is more than an idea with a Gospel performer – it is a fundamental requirement. If something is not good, then it is not good – this is an absolute that connot be compromised. "However, you need to have a basic understanding of the workings of a pendulum or this may not resonate with you." Borderline-line patronizing "The pendulum works on the subconscious level much like the choices you make in life without you realizing it. The pendulum is supposed to tell you the truth based on what you really believe and feel. God does things for us based on salvation, justification, sanctification? Why not use the cross to represent salvation and the coffin nail to represent d@mnation which end do you hold or have held in life and how did you change your ways? No trick all story." There is so much that is Biblically wrong with what you said. As you prefaced at the beginning of this post that you are not a Biblical expert – your thought line of logic is really telling where you are at in your spiritual walk. I am sad for you and you are in my prayers. I am sure everyone here understands what you are selling is a simple trick with a very simple method. This is actually an old parlor game that folks use to play with to learn the gender of their unborn child – what is important is “what” the props represent. A reality is that there are bad people out there whose goal is to deceive people. Many of the methods used to show their “powers” are nothing more than simple tricks and methods in the magic community – unfortunately they have been presented in a manner that is very influential on an uneducated audience. Today, in the 21st Century, there are those that still deceive NOT in the name of entertainment but rather darkness with the same simple “props” that can be found at Abbott’s or Penguins’. "e.g. present the pendulum as an authentic relic (in the form of entertainment). Unveil it theatrically and take the audience on a guided visualization back in time tell a story to demonstrate the beliefs of the past (what unholy meant for example with respect to objects) and make a correlation to bring it up to the present what is believed today. Discuss the sub conscience and its influences have not changed but education and environmental impact has. Discuss the bible and how faith may not change in respect or what God can do for us. Use the pendulum as an example don't use it to talk to the dead. This is not the current belief of what a pendulum is used for. Discuss what makes up someone sub conscious and beliefs and how to be available to receiving what God may do for them by understanding physiology and psychology. Who doesn't want to see an interesting relic?" Again, there is a lack of a fundamental understanding the Christian faith. As a storyteller you know that word selection is very important, your word selection is very telling as there so much wrong in the path your are trying to direct (push) this prop in. Earlier you used the words, “salvation, justification, sanctification” I will give you a couple of other words to Google – Eisegesis and Exegesis. What you are proposing is most definitely eisegesis (bad thing). The reality is that not every prop can be used as a visual object lesson. "This could be a more intellectual approach for adult engagement. That was just off the top of my head. If we are creative story tellers great!" A Gospel performer is much more than a creative story teller – they are a liaison who is delivering a message of hope. "Why not have an authentic looking prop if that is all you ever use it for. An interesting artifact with a history one that is only limited to your presentation. BTW it also reacts to a m@gnet and electronic c@il which is self-working. Imagine putting it on a surface and it moves or gets throw off the table (no skill involved). I think that would be very cool, interesting and ready for any story or routine about what God does for you." The burden of proof is in your court. Quoting your words, “I think that would be very cool, interesting and ready for any story or routine about what God does for you.” You have been given a very basic glimpse of the needs of a Gospel entertainer, it is up to you to “sell” us on a single specific use of this prop with an appropriate message and not belittle us eluding that we are unworthy or uncreative to see the potential(when the artist of the effect cannot provide one themselves). The reality is that the majority do not have the time to invest in something that for most would be a “one and done” prop. Very few in the world of ministry have the advantage of changing our audience. Sell me on the package – NOT just the physical look of the prop – but a complete package. In other words, not just the possibilities “If I was only creative enough" - We are paying a professional storyteller for their story, so what is it? "Maybe you can tell me what you currently perform and the stories you tell so I have a better idea of your challenges, to help you be more relevant and current while appealing to adults using mature themes that will connect with them." - back at you – LOL - I appreciate your concern "BTW there are none currently available for sale but I may make a limited run in the future. It’s not a sales pitch more of a possibility to help advance the arts as nothing like this has be tried to my knowledge and I'm all for pushing boundaries and innovating. There is a gem in here somewhere, can you find it? Is it worth discovering or is it easier to dismiss it without working for it. I worked hard to bring this to the magic community" I do not doubt you worked hard to bring this to the magic community - but did you work hard to bring this to the faith-based community (or are you expecting a free pass?) Magic community and the Gospel community are two different animals – yes, they both may use the same “props” but the needs are very different. "and it is very well received I can't believe you have zero use for it." Careful not to let pride get cloud your thinking - again, not every prop is suited for a Gospel message. "I could find plenty based on casting out negative to get to the positive which is counter intuitive but more interesting to me" Your efforts for a secular market is very different than a faith-based audience. I totally agree, this line that worked for the general secular magic community is counter intuitive if you are trying to market your item to a Christian audience. That whole premise is a cultural stumbling block that prevents folks from a real relationship with Christ. It falls into the category of creating your own god that represents what you consider your own personal truth. There is a fine line between being a story teller and an entertainer who feeds off of the ignorance of their audience. Like you admitted at the beginning of your post that you are not all that knowledgeable with Scripture, you are not alone. We live in a broken world where there is much confusion. If a performer does not take responsibility for what they are doing, they can add to the confusion in the lives of people and even become a stumbling block causing a person to miss out on Heaven. I am NOT say you, but the majority of bizzarist are more caught up in their own ego and persona and are clueless of the very real ramifications of their actions. That being said, it is not me who will judge them. The reality is that we have a finite number of sunrises and sunsets that we will witness before we are judged for our actions on earth. "and I used to make balloon animals.." It is a good thing you don’t make balloon animals any more – think about the liabilities, you have no way of knowing who maybe allergic to latex, and think about the damage to the self-esteem of those who balloon popped after you left – let us not forget the shards of broken latex left behind that create a choking hazard for the toddlers. Wise choice in giving up balloon animals |
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
Thanks for your response. I'm pretty sure this is not a product for you and believe me they are extremely limited there will be less than 50 in total. So about another 20 when they are ready. You are not my market that's for sure unless you are forward thinking I would be willing to work with you. I'm sorry you are unwilling to talk seriously about advancing your art through innovation and discussion. Not just cutting down my words to show my faults or have a cheap laugh, but that is often a defensive mechanism for when its becomes a difficult discussion so I get it.
Again I'll ask but no one really wants to touch this with a 10 foot pole (kind of like a scary cross what a surprise). Signor Blitz how do you entertain adults personally? Can you provide examples of the magic trick you perform to get your message across and what stories you are telling? Or will you avoid this question as well? I think it's best we don't do this through a PM it will be a good lesson for all. Please read the OP's comment to have some context of why I came here and try to think about the routine I created about tolerance and the church. Let me know if God is tolerant could there be a connection for what he does for you and a possible routine like the one I created. BTW do you know the story? Like I said I 'm not a bible expert but I'm listening and trying to have a serious conversation and I hope you are too.
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
Signor Blitz Elite user 419 Posts |
It seems that this conversation is caught up in a Mobius strip - LOL
The best method for me to respond is to repost your post in quotations and add my response at the end. "Thanks for your response. I'm pretty sure this is not a product for you and believe me they are extremely limited there will be less than 50 in total. So about another 20 when they are ready. You are not my market that's for sure unless you are forward thinking I would be willing to work with you. I'm sorry you are unwilling to talk seriously about advancing your art through innovation and discussion. Not just cutting down my words to show my faults or have a cheap laugh, but that is often a defensive mechanism for when its becomes a difficult discussion so I get it." Again, the burden of proof is in your shoulders. What specifically is the Gospel message intended for the pendulum? I am not interested in a consolation service regarding current material or other "prop" ideas - I am only interested in discussing the item presented. You have made it clear that you only have made a few of these, understood - but I am looking at the concept of incorporating a pendulum into a Gospel presentation. I will be honest, I don't have one - that is why in my original post to invite anyone in who may have a thought or Biblical application. AND the reality is that there very well may not be one. To be clear when speaking about application, a historical story outside of Scripture, antidote, story from church tradition won't work, but rather what is the specific point from Scripture that is being shared. That is the golden ticket. A person in the field of Gospel entertainment/speaking/ministry must be careful not to be so "forward thinking" and "innovative" - that the original message of Scripture is compromised or contradicted. As I clearly stated in my previous reply, sharing God's Truth is much more than storytelling - and one day each "storyteller" will be held accountable. I appreciate the attempt to "spin" the finger of "innovation" back in my direction - however all you have said that there is a need for innovation and advancing without providing a clear before and after example. As for the "unwillingness" to dialogue with you - that is a absurd statement. The fact that I even invested time in sharing with you what the Gospel field requires regarding visual metaphors illustrates my sincere efforts and willingness to communicate. It seems that either I have not communicated well enough for you to understand, or the unwillingness is actually you not listening and reflecting on what has been written. AS for interjection of humor - it is just that - some things you wrote warranted a "Tongue and cheek" reply - no personal attack. No one here is trying to point out your faults or cutting down your words - however, if there is a faultily or misguided line of thinking, philosophy or understanding regarding the Christian faith, then yes - it will be called out to your attention, out of love. As I wrote before, you have said some things that do indicate the level of your understanding and or lack their of. The unwillingness is to understand that a person who shares the Gospel is interested in advancing a relationship with Christ in a broken world - not advancing an art or other agenda. This conversation is actually a really a clear and easy one for me - there is no defensiveness on my end what so ever With that being said, there was a point that was a "bit all over the place" and I just require further elaboration to understand what you are trying to say. It is not a judgment on your intellect rather calling out a need for the sake of clarity. "Again I'll ask but no one really wants to touch this with a 10 foot pole (kind of like a scary cross what a surprise). Signor Blitz how do you entertain adults personally? Can you provide examples of the magic trick you perform to get your message across and what stories you are telling? Or will you avoid this question as well?" Again, I am not interested in a consultation service, I do appreciate your concern. I am only interested in the topic of incorporating a pendulum with a Gospel message. As for no one touching this with a ten foot poll - it is not because it is "scary" rather it is an issue of appropriateness. None has been provided - if you could, then this would be a well received prop, routine, application. "I think it's best we don't do this through a PM it will be a good lesson for all. Please read the OP's comment to have some context of why I came here and try to think about the routine I created about tolerance and the church. Let me know if God is tolerant could there be a connection for what he does for you and a possible routine like the one I created. BTW do you know the story?" You were the one who first brought up the idea of discussing this off line - I agree, keeping it here is beneficial. In looking at the original post, I can see where and how you entered the conversation. Regarding the specific story in question, I am guessing you are referencing the story you use in conjunction with your marketed prop. There are many stories story from the protestant reformation area - if you could site which one you are referencing (you need not disclose your routine) that might help. Again, that being said, even though a story contains "churchy" words it does not automatically qualify it for a Gospel message. Tolerance. In the words of Inigo Montoya from the 1987 romantic comedy film The Princess Bride, "You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.” This is a very "hot topic" with theologians and society as a whole for decades. Evangelist Billy Graham wrote a brief, concise article on this issue. It can be found by visiting http://billygraham.org/story/the-sin-of-tolerance/ This is a wonderful article that covers this topic from a Biblical (not societal) perspective. I encourage everyone to check this out and reflect on it and see how it compares to the worldviews that most effect an individuals life. "Like I said I 'm not a bible expert but I'm listening and trying to have a serious conversation and I hope you are too." As I said before, not many "Bible experts" out there in relation to the size of population - but like so much in life, there does come a point where an individual needs to listen to those that have a greater knowledge than themselves in order to grow and advance - this is applicable in ANY field. If you read and reflect on what I am saying, it should be clear that I am serious regarding this conversation. To say otherwise only illustrates that you may listen but are you actually hearing what I am saying. Thank you for your willingness to stretch, learn and grow. |
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
I can't have a serious discussion to help "you" move your magic forward with all the passive aggressive comments in the form of jokes being made at my expense. If you can't think of a story about a cross then I don't know what to tell you. You don't need my help. There is no burden of proof required by anyside for creative collaboration, that is a defensive, argumentative position. You are the third person I asked what routines and stories you perform and you avoid answering. Best of luck with your magic and storytelling you have turned me off and have disrespected your community by being difficult and confrontational and dismissive to a visitor who came to help you. I was thinking of joining your organization but if this is the welcome you provide forget it. What an embarrassment, I'm glad it's all been documented.
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
Terry Holley Inner circle 1805 Posts |
Quote:
On Jan 9, 2016, Darkness wrote: I was thinking of joining your organization.... I take it then that you agree to the FCM Statement of Faith as shown below? Clarification of this might help advance this discussion. Statement of Faith "I have received Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior and believe the Bible to be the only inspired infallible Word of God. I believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin and He died on the cross as the only atonement for our sins; that He rose from the dead; that He ascended to the Father’s right hand in Heaven, and will one day come back for those who trust in Him. As a member of this Fellowship, I commit myself to: (1) reaching lost souls and encouraging growth in the body of Christ through the use of such talents as magic, ventriloquism and associated arts; (2) diligently be a more proficient performer with these talents; and (3) carefully uphold the code of ethics of the magic profession (related to exposure of magical effects and ideas).”
Co-author with illusionist Andre' Kole of "Astrology and Psychic Phenomena."
|
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
This discussion is done. I would not concider joining this organization based on the conversations I have had with its members. These people should be ashamed. And all you got out of this is wondering if I meet your requirements? Ha another reason to leave this discussion, thanks for adding to the embarrassment.
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
Signor Blitz Elite user 419 Posts |
?
|
|||||||||
Darkness Inner circle 1626 Posts |
I will ask a third time. What adult magic routines and story's do you do exactly?
If you need to go back to the 80's to make a lame overly used joke from the princess bride movie that tells me your magic may also also not be progressive. Or your entertainment skills need sharpening and you need help, but are either too proud or lazy to advance your skills? You don't even see where tolerance fits in the conversation maybe because you don't know my routine or can make the connection to this discussion? But don't insult me in the public forum because you can't comprehend. There are better ways to have positive discussions instead of making fun of people by your passive aggressive comments. A guy just told me he has a problem getting through to adults and entertaining them so what do you do exactly to be successful in this regard (or do you only perform to the kids and can't relate)? Do you even perform "magic"? I'm also having a problem getting through to you. BTW you don't have to re-post every comment I say. Most people are intelligent enough to follow a conversation without rehashing and wasting their time reading the same words over. When you do that it comes across as an aggressive way to make a point. I'm sure that never even occurred to you.
THE SUPERNATURAL ILLUSIONIST & EFFECTS CREATOR WWW.MRDARKNESS.COM
|
|||||||||
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The Fellowship of Christian Magicians! » » Insane (12 Likes) | ||||||||||
Go to page [Previous] 1~2~3 [Next] |
[ Top of Page ] |
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2024 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved. This page was created in 0.22 seconds requiring 5 database queries. |
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic. > Privacy Statement < |