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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » RIP Brittany Maynard (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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It seems to me nobody on earth is qualified to Judge her decision.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
LobowolfXXX
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Fortunately, we as a society don't really have to judge her decision. We have to decide whether or not she has the legal right to make it, though.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
tommy
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Indeed. That is where it opens up all sorts of questions.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:


...Again, your explanations- Bob, Lobo- haven't addressed the psychological and emotional impacts I've referred to. We're dealing with human beings here. You also haven't addressed, as the dictionary mentioned, the usual critical intention component. You're presenting something different, I think. And I think that's supported by your follow-up about shark meat. Thus, I would suggest the smoking example cited could also refer to someone's submission to addiction. And I think smokers are sensitive to that.

Point of reference...


I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you mean.

But if you're referring to my earlier statement that Ms. Mayard's decision was laudable, I didn't intend that to mean that her choice should encourage others in similar circumstances to do the same thing. I was simply commending her courage to follow through on what I think she honestly believed to be the right thing for her. I think she simply followed the ancient maxim, "To thine own self be true."


S2000 knows where the expansion on "should" came from. Goes back to your questions to me as well, Bob. And continues with the non-violence and self-discrepancies references I posted. And is key to our "influence of others on or toward freedom of choice" focus.

Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We have to decide whether or not she has the legal right to make it, though.


Do we?
mastermindreader
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I believe I understand your view now, Laurie. I've been thinking about it and perhaps you've changed my mind just a little bit. I DO see how someone whose condition wasn't as hopeless as Brittany believed her own to be, might be influenced by her decision.

Maybe the right thing is to just quietly accept that she made her own decision, and to respect that - but not to unduly glorify that decision publicly.

Is that the essence of your point?
magicalaurie
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How might anyone be influenced by anyone? She made a choice. It's been said to be a free one. What does that mean? Was she true to herself?

It's about what is. All the "should"s and "ought" s and "must"s set up a discrepancy. I like to deal directly with what "is". How can we do that if everyone is distracted by what "should" be?
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
S2000 knows where the expansion on "should" came from.

Indeed I do.

And, inasmuch as there's disagreement on the meaning of "should", perhaps the prudent course would have been to have asked me the sense in which I'd intended it.

You never did answer my question about whether you think that free choice should (or ought to) be unlimited or not.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
How might anyone be influenced by anyone? She made a choice. It's been said to be a free one. What does that mean? Was she true to herself?

It's about what is. All the "should"s and "ought" s and "must"s set up a discrepancy. I like to deal directly with what "is". How can we do that if everyone is distracted by what "should" be?

Bad situations cannot be improved if one focuses solely on what is and ignores what could (or should or ought to) be.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
We have to decide whether or not she has the legal right to make it, though.

Do we?



Well, yes. Laws are passed, or they're not, and in the immortal words of Neil Peart, if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
LobowolfXXX
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Assuming for the sake of argument that S2000 HAD said (to us) that the people in question "shouldn't" have euthanized the horse (which he didn't), how does that equate to "must" or "exerting pressure" on people to whom he never made the comment?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Assuming for the sake of argument that S2000 HAD said (to us) that the people in question "shouldn't" have euthanized the horse (which he didn't), how does that equate to "must" or "exerting pressure" on people to whom he never made the comment?

To be fair, Lobo, I did write that, "And at the other extreme, I've seen many animals who lead miserable lives, but whose owners cling to them desperately when they should be ending the suffering." (Emphasis added.)

And, for the record, they should have euthanized Mattie instead of letting her suffer for over a year. (Unfortunately, you got that part backward.)

You are correct, however, that I never said anything to them to that effect, nor to the other pet owners to whom I refer in the first quote.
mastermindreader
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For those who still don't understand the difference in connotation between "should" and "must," the following explains it quite clearly:

http://www.differencebetween.net/languag......nd-must/

It's a very clear explanation with many examples. It's also rather long so I'll just include the summary here:

Quote:
Summary:

“Must” represents more of an obligation while “should” represents a probability or recommendation.



Another detailed explanation of the difference between "should," "ought" and "must:"

http://blog.oxforddictionaries.com/2014/......d-ought/

Bottom line- "Must" is used to refer to something that is obligatory or compulsory either by law or exigency. "Ought" connotes more of a moral or ethical obligation, and "should" is really just a recommendation.

Pretty much what I've been saying all along.
LobowolfXXX
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I think that "should" is also used to refer to other people's moral choices, in which case it's neither a recommendation nor an obligation, but a commentary (i.e. A value judgment), and "must" is never used that way. For instance, "He should have told her he was out drinking."
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
How might anyone be influenced by anyone? She made a choice. It's been said to be a free one. What does that mean? Was she true to herself?

It's about what is. All the "should"s and "ought" s and "must"s set up a discrepancy. I like to deal directly with what "is". How can we do that if everyone is distracted by what "should" be?



Once more, Bob, I think the dictionary (ies) are in disagreement with you, and whether they are or not, we're dealing with human beings and you're not addressing the discrepancies, psychology, or emotion.

Why didn't S2000 tell them directly how he felt and why is he telling us now about what "should have been"? And how would Mattie's owners feel if someone sent them a copy of his comments here? How do others feel about what he said? How do others in a similar position to Mattie's owners feel about what he said?

As Jeff questioned earlier, where did "Brittany Maynard's" concept of "dignity" come from? Was it "entirely" her own? Does it matter now? What we're left with is what "is". The idea that we are one begins to be emphasized once more.
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Nov 9, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
Why didn't S2000 tell them directly how he felt and why is he telling us now about what "should have been"? And how would Mattie's owners feel if someone sent them a copy of his comments here? How do others feel about what he said? How do others in a similar position to Mattie's owners feel about what he said?

Why are you asking Bob all of these questions? He cannot possibly know the answers.

Shouldn't you be asking me?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Nov 9, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 8, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
How might anyone be influenced by anyone? She made a choice. It's been said to be a free one. What does that mean? Was she true to herself?

It's about what is. All the "should"s and "ought" s and "must"s set up a discrepancy. I like to deal directly with what "is". How can we do that if everyone is distracted by what "should" be?



Once more, Bob, I think the dictionary (ies) are in disagreement with you, and whether they are or not, we're dealing with human beings and you're not addressing the discrepancies, psychology, or emotion.

Why didn't S2000 tell them directly how he felt and why is he telling us now about what "should have been"? And how would Mattie's owners feel if someone sent them a copy of his comments here? How do others feel about what he said? How do others in a similar position to Mattie's owners feel about what he said?

As Jeff questioned earlier, where did "Brittany Maynard's" concept of "dignity" come from? Was it "entirely" her own? Does it matter now? What we're left with is what "is". The idea that we are one begins to be emphasized once more.



I don't know what you mean by the "discrepancies" you're referring to.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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Page 5. Nov. 7, 9:31pm. to start, Lobo.

----------------

We see Brittany seemed aware her doctors didn't necessarily know what they were talking about and yet she believed the prognosis. How much research did she do? You can google this and see there are people who have survived and doctors are seeing "emerging survivorship" and realizing their view of this disease is changing yet people are still getting the old prognosis. She seemed to feel anything short of a cure wasn't good enough. That's interesting. Especially in regards to the discrepancies linked to and the reality that doctors said she may have been living with this disease for a decade.

I posted a link about Brittany a few pages back, I'll post it here again beneath these quotes from it:


"This time, doctors said it was likely a Grade 4 glioblastoma and told her she had at most six months to live.

Without opening up her brain to take a sample of the tumor, they couldn't be sure, though, they told her – one of many frustratingly inexact answers she got during her illness."

"'That's always been my experience as a really healthy person, so it's been a scarier experience having a type of cancer that's not well understood in the grand scheme of things,' she added. 'For me, not being able to cured has been terrifying....'"

"...Maynard's tumor seemed to mystify doctors, she told PEOPLE.

At one point, they told her they thought it could have been growing very slowly for as long as 10 years, she said.

'The doctors are shocked at how large my tumor is,' she said. 'They said they've never seen one this large. It's in the parts of my brain that control speech and language, so they think those functions have shifted elsewhere in my brain since I can still speak.'

Experts agree there is still a lot unknown about many brain tumors and more funding is needed for research.

'It could happen to any of us,' Wilson says. 'We just don't know who or when or why. That's what our research funding goes toward.'

Sean Grady says patient diagnosed with glioblastoma often face a very grim prognosis.

'The odds are definitely against you for long-term survival,' he says. 'Radiation and straightforward chemotherapy can improve things by a series of months but not by a series of years.'

For Maynard, though, the horrific side effects she faced from radiation, which would have had to encompass nearly her entire brain, and chemotherapy were not something she was willing to endure...."

"...Hope Dwindles
After her initial diagnosis in January, Maynard began to research death with dignity...."

http://www.people.com/article/Brittany-M......-journey
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Nov 9, 2014, S2000magician wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 9, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
Why didn't S2000 tell them directly how he felt and why is he telling us now about what "should have been"? And how would Mattie's owners feel if someone sent them a copy of his comments here? How do others feel about what he said? How do others in a similar position to Mattie's owners feel about what he said?

Why are you asking Bob all of these questions? He cannot possibly know the answers.

Shouldn't you be asking me?


Don't be silly. I'm the Master Mind Reader. I'm SUPPOSED to know these things.

But, personally, I don't think Mattie's owners or others in similar situations could care less about any opinions offered here.

Your mind is my playground. Smile
tommy
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It's no coincidence, you understand, that your government is making your life miserable at the moment. If they make your life wretched enough, there’s nothing much to live for is there?
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
S2000magician
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Quote:
On Nov 9, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Don't be silly. I'm the Master Mind Reader. I'm SUPPOSED to know these things.

Objection: assumes facts not in evidence. (Even the Master Mind Reader needs a mind to read.)
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