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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » RIP Brittany Maynard (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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tommy
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The average age for euthanasia might drop in time: Belgian for instance, they have recently brought in a law on euthanasia for children, with no age limit and it is the first in world to so.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
mastermindreader
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Again, this case has nothing whatsoever to do with euthanasia. You're just derailing the topic.
tommy
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Nazi Euthanasia: In October of 1939 amid the turmoil of the outbreak of war Hitler ordered widespread "mercy killing" of the sick and disabled. Lest we forget.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
magicalaurie
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I will daresay that seizures do not have to be considered a sign the end is very near. She was dignified, but pressured and certainly fearful, I'll daresay that, too. And I'll also daresay I think tommy is much closer to the mark, if not on bullseye altogether, than the general population would like to believe. And, Bob, as I mentioned above, as someone who has participated in euthanasia, this fits the category, certainly. Could she get those pills without the script? A doctor don't have to administer the drug, trust me, the patient ends up just as dead. I speak from experience in this, you can count on it.
mastermindreader
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I guess we're just going to have to disagree on this one, Laurie. I believe the Brittany Maynard had the absolute right to determine the way and manner from which she would exit this life.

She was not co-erced. It was HER choice based on her own experience of the pain she was suffering and the diagnosis she faced.

I applaud her for her determination to take control of her own life and death.
magicalaurie
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Serious discrepancies between Brittany's case and this:

“'Terminal disease' is defined as 'an incurable and irreversible disease that has been medically confirmed and will, within reasonable medical judgment, produce death within six months.' Then, the physician must ensure that the patient is making an informed decision by providing the patient with various information, including informing the patient of alternatives to death, such as hospice care and pain control."

http://campbelllawobserver.com/2014/10/d......d-death/

See that? No airtime for healing or the fact that people do go into complete remission from "terminal disease". And how about the six months? There's no "close to six months" qualifier in that clause, Bob. And I think any reasonable medical practitioner can see Brittany's "terminal disease" did not produce death within six months.

Bob, did I say she didn't have the right? Take another look at what I've actually said.
mastermindreader
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If you're not saying, or implying, that she didn't have the right, what ARE you saying? That she should have been prevented by law from ending her own life?

I really am not clear on your position. Are you saying that the medical professionals should not have been allowed to tell her that her condition was terminal and that there was no procedure that could save her?

What are you saying she SHOULD have done?
magicalaurie
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Are you getting mad at me, here, Bob? I'm not telling anyone what they should do. I'm not in the practice of doing that. I thought you knew me a little better than that. I'm only asking people to look closely at what's happened, that's all. Have you read the medical article I posted here earlier?
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
Serious discrepancies between Brittany's case and this:

“'Terminal disease' is defined as 'an incurable and irreversible disease that has been medically confirmed and will, within reasonable medical judgment, produce death within six months.' Then, the physician must ensure that the patient is making an informed decision by providing the patient with various information, including informing the patient of alternatives to death, such as hospice care and pain control."

http://campbelllawobserver.com/2014/10/d......d-death/

See that? No airtime for healing or the fact that people do go into complete remission from "terminal disease". And how about the six months? There's no "close to six months" qualifier in that clause, Bob. And I think any reasonable medical practitioner can see Brittany's "terminal disease" did not produce death within six months.

Bob, did I say she didn't have the right? Take another look at what I've actually said.


The gap of more than six months between April and November isn't the basis of any discrepancy, because:

1) The fact at she lived beyond six months doesn't demonstrate that it wasn't within reasonable medical judgment that she had six months to live. Beliefs don't have to be infallible to be reasonable. And

2) The six months in the law is from the time of the written request, not the diagnosis. She made her written request after April - less than six months before November 1.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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Lobo, but she took the prescription after the six months. ie. she wasn't dead and she still had the script. That doesn't fit. We're talking life and death here, close doesn't count, I think. Belief? I thought it said "reasonable medical judgement". What do you think the intent of that clause is if the "six months" doesn't count? Why do people keep getting that false prognosis?
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
Are you getting mad at me, here, Bob? I'm not telling anyone what they should do. I'm not in the practice of doing that. I thought you knew me a little better than that. I'm only asking people to look closely at what's happened, that's all. Have you read the medical article I posted here earlier?



No. Not getting made at you at all. (I don't get mad over simple discussions.) I just don't understand what your position is. That's why I asked all those questions.

And, yes, I did read those articles. My position and feelings in the matter remain unchanged.

I believe that Brittany Maynard was fully informed of all medical options and made a personal choice based on her own judgment.
LobowolfXXX
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It's my understanding that in April, when she was told she had six months to live, she was still in California. She decided to move, moved, established residency, etc. before she made her request and got the prescription. So she didn't have the prescription for six months, and when she made the written request, that's when the determination has to be made about having a terminal illness; at THAT time, she might very well have had less than six months.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
2) The six months in the law is from the time of the written request, not the diagnosis. She made her written request after April - less than six months before November 1.


O.k. I thought maybe there's an expiry on the prescription. Has anyone said when she made her written request, specifically?
mastermindreader
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So if she died six months and one day or even eight or nine months after the prognosis, would that render the prognosis unreasonable?

Obviously not. No one can predict an exact day of death. (Except a judge, a governor or a hit man)

There appears to be no doubt, though, that her diagnosis was terminal and that her death, if allowed to occur naturally, would have been preceded by great pain and suffering for both her and her family- something she chose to avoid.
magicalaurie
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I think there's at least a little doubt, Bob. If one survives years or a decade or more longer, or with complete remission, does that make the prognosis unreasonable? If so, certainly, in multiple instances the prognosis has been unreasonable.

Considering the "experts" who've been treating this disease for decades are seeing "emerging survivorship" as a qualifier of a new era in this disease, there is doubt about Brittany's prognosis. The diagnosis is one thing, the actual course of condition, another.
The diagnosis was "terminal". The "natural" course of her disease is moot, now. That doesn't equate to certainty it would have been fatal. That just didn't happen.

I think this is more than a "simple" discussion.

Another part of my point in this has been a counterpoint to your statement that this has nothing to do with euthanasia. Do you feel a need to make a distinction? Why? Again, I'll say I think this certainly qualified as euthanasia.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
2) The six months in the law is from the time of the written request, not the diagnosis. She made her written request after April - less than six months before November 1.


O.k. I thought maybe there's an expiry on the prescription. Has anyone said when she made her written request, specifically?


I haven't seen that, but I did read a first person narrative of the events from her that suggested that it was probably in the summer. Six got the "six months" diagnosis in April, while living in CA, and a number of things had to be done before she made her written request.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
magicalaurie
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Yes, as you've said, and the article above states, she had to move to Oregon, etc. I understand. Thankyou. I wonder about these prescriptions. Some have gone unfilled. And I believe they're generally, if not exclusively, for controlled substances. Just curious about the details on them.
magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

No one can predict an exact day of death. (Except a judge, a governor or a hit man)



And Brittany Maynard.
mastermindreader
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I understand your point of view completely, Laurie. And, yes, I agree this is an example of voluntary euthanasia. My objection to tommy was that he seemed to be trying to equate this with some kind of international plot to endorse euthanasia for the elderly as a cost saving measure.

I also agree that the argument is far from simple.

My question for you, though, is- If you were in a position to decide FOR her, would you have over-ruled her decision to die? (I honestly don't think you would have.)
magicalaurie
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Bob if you really understood my point of view completely, I think you'd stop asking what I would decide FOR her, indeed.
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