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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » RIP Brittany Maynard (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mastermindreader
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I'm not trying to argue with you but I obviously don't understand your point of view. You seem to think she made the wrong decision because you believe there is always the possibility of a spontaneous remission or a miraculous recovery.

Are you saying that in cases like this, assisted suicide should not be legal? Or, are you just saying that if you were in the same position you would not have made the same decision? If the latter, that is understandable as it would reflect your complete freedom of choice. The same freedom Brittany exercised.
rockwall
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Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, rockwall wrote:


How many greedy kids will browbeat their elderly parent to make this 'decision' so that they can finally get their money on the inheritance? Or maybe just not have to take care of the elderly parent anymore?


Again, this thread has nothing to do with euthanasia for the elderly. It's about a 29 year old courageous woman who chose to end her life on her own terms.


What is different between a 29 year old 'courageous' woman choosing to end her life and an 85 year old 'courageous' woman choosing to end her life?
rockwall
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On Nov 4, 2014, HudsonView wrote:
1. Sell my body parts if I want to?
People donate body parts all the time. I carry an organ donars card myself.

2. Sell my kid if I want to? (Why can't someone pay me to have a baby for them?)
Surrogates get paid for having a baby for other people right now.

3. If I want to euthanize, why do I have to prove I'm dying?

You don't. Suicide is a pretty common occurance.

4. Why only legalize marijuana? Why not any drug I want to take?

Many people think that all drugs should legalized and controlled, taking the profit margin out of organized crime. Why not. It will happen eventually.



Comprehension is not your strong suit is it?
magicalaurie
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Bob, you're the only one trying to suggest I'm imposing on Brittany. Or attempting to get me to do so. If I was at all interested in such a notion, I'd have consulted her long before this. No doubt. And there are people here who know that's true.

She made a choice. That's it. She made a choice. I seem to think this I seem to think that.

I think she made a choice and the details around it are significant to us all. That's it. I have a point of reference, and you have a point of reference and so does everyone else... I've seen things that indicate tommy's done his homework... I'm surprised you disagree... I don't give a damm about society's "law"... I'm surprised you keep asking what I think should and should not be "legal"... I really thought I'd made myself clear enough the last while on that sort of thing... all of this is information we all can use... no more... no less...
mastermindreader
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I apologize, Laurie, for giving you the impression that I'm trying to make you commit to something.

But, honestly, I still don't know what your views are on the Brittany Maynard case.

And I don't understand why you're arguing with mine.
magicalaurie
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I'm not arguing. I think that's the problem here. You're looking for an argument. Is counterpoint an argument, or the other side of the same coin?

Why would you think I'd be interested in taking Brittany's freedom from her when I've opposed such a thing from the top of this thread? Can't you see my concern is the same as yours?
mastermindreader
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No, I'm not looking for an argument at all. Just discussion I was just trying to figure out your position regarding death with dignity and physician assisted suicide laws.

And I still fail to see what this case has to do with tommy's attempt to derail the thread into a discussion of euthanizing the elderly as a cost saving measure. I don't consider conspiracy theories like that to be "well researched."
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
I'm not arguing. I think that's the problem here. You're looking for an argument. Is counterpoint an argument, or the other side of the same coin?

Why would you think I'd be interested in taking Brittany's freedom from her when I've opposed such a thing from the top of this thread? Can't you see my concern is the same as yours?


Perhaps because you've seemed to agree with Tommy, who thinks that 1) it should be illegal, and 2) the right to die movement is driven by the desire to kill off huge numbers of people for financial reasons. And because you seem focused on the potential issues in an Oregon case (though, granted, the details are obviously very important), while most of the people who agree with Bob and me are probably more concerned with the 45 states that don't recognize the right at all.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
landmark
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Apples, oranges.
I don't want to speak for laurie, but I think our feelings are similar here:
The legal question is the less interesting one. There are other things to talk about.
mastermindreader
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On Nov 4, 2014, landmark wrote:
Apples, oranges.
I don't want to speak for laurie, but I think our feelings are similar here:
The legal question is the less interesting one. There are other things to talk about.


So let's talk about them. Care to give us a few questions that you feel we should talk about on this issue? (I'll give my honest opinions. And I'm sure others will as well.)
magicalaurie
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Bob, my Dad was 89 last year and spent a fair amount of time in hospital. I see quite plainly tommy's concern and I spoke to a man from India today who's my mother's age (71) and he mentioned it himself. He says a lot of people go back to India if they have a serious medical condition because they're afraid to get treated here. I understand. Maybe "free" health care has something to do with it.

http://todaysgeriatricmedicine.com/archive/winter08p16.shtml

"They’re all emblematic of ageism, a complex phenomenon carrying a continuing burden of social and political prejudice that has real costs to the health, well-being, and longevity of thousands of older adults."

"Yet any overview of the current state of elder healthcare resounds with disturbing data. For example, based on the ILC’s 2006 report on ageism in America, 90% of older Americans never receive routine screening tests for bone density, colon or prostate cancer, or glaucoma—all conditions that increase with age. Sixty percent of older adults don’t receive routine preventive health services, including screening for high blood pressure or cholesterol. And 35% of doctors continue to believe, despite ample evidence to the contrary, that elevated blood pressure is a 'normal' part of aging."

"Medical research mirrors this discrimination."

And I saw this myself last year when my sister and I were in the ER with him at 1 a.m. on a Saturday night:

"A survey conducted at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine revealed that 80% of medical students would aggressively treat pneumonia in a girl aged 10, while only 56% would do the same for a woman aged 85."
mastermindreader
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Laurie-

I agree with you completely regarding the elderly and ageism and everything you wrote in your last post. I just think those are separate (though very important) issues from those raised in the Brittany Maynard case.
magicalaurie
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They're issues of freedom, I believe. That doctor was ready to send my Dad to the morgue and somehow thought my sister and I would be on board with that.
mastermindreader
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Yes they are, but ageism and poor medical care for the elderly were not issues with Brittany Maynard. The commonality is the issue of individual rights.
magicalaurie
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Was she free is the issue, I believe.
That doctor was ready to send my Dad to the morgue and somehow thought my sister and I would be on board with that. Tracey didn't pick up on the innuendo so I had to ask the doctor to be a little more outright in what she was seeking consent for. Tracey was stunned this doctor tried to sneak it right past her. I said you treat him like he's 20 years old. I was some angry. The doctor thought I was upset with Tracey somehow. Clueless. And this is going on everyday. He's had a good life... let's just send him on his way, that's why you're here at 1 a.m. on a Saturday night, of course, yes? Doctors can quite quickly get used to getting paid to prescribe death. Much less work involved, guaranteed outcome, quick turnover, increased profit margin, ...
mastermindreader
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That's a horrible situation to be in and I sympathize with you, having been there myself with my grandfather.

In the Maynard case, though, no one was seeking consent from guardians or relatives. I believe that she fully made up her own mind based on the medical evidence and her own subjective feelings about the state of her health and her prospects of recovery.

If she was misled by doctors that would be outrageous and certainly malpractice. It would definitely raise questions as to whether she could make a truly free decision if it was based on an erroneous prognosis.

But I don't see anything to indicate that was the case. And neither, apparently, did her family or others close to her.
LobowolfXXX
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She also spent months doing her own research in between the diagnoses and her decision.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
mastermindreader
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Yes. I believe that her decision was exceptionally well-informed. Of course, if it was based on a faulty diagnosis or prognosis that would be a different story. But I don't see any evidence that it was.
stoneunhinged
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I fully support people making their own decisions about their own lives. I do not assume that those decisions are "correct" or "brave" if I am not intimately familiar with the person making the decision.

Brittany's choice--which should indeed have been her own to make--was not necessarily a choice that we automatically ought to applaud. Maybe we should applaud it, but not automatically. What in fact did Britannny consider suffering, for example? Could it be that in part she chose to avoided the bloated, ugly, and distorted body that chemo would give her? And does avoiding ugliness send a message we ought to applaud? What about women who fear living without breasts? What about colostomy bags? What about wheelchairs, crutches, prosthetics, wigs, false teeth?

My point is that if Brittany wished to quietly kill herself (her legal and ethical right to choose for herself), then perhaps I could applaud her actions. But by making a public statement, she raises questions about whether the decision was a good one. In other words, she raises the question of whether she was a role model.

I'm not saying she isn't. I'm saying that I find it problematic to simply accept it as so. EVEN IF we think we know the facts of the case, we do not.

Last night I played music with friend who was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer 2 1/2 years ago. Next Tuesday he is having his chemo port removed, having been declared cancer free. I have two sisters with cancer, both still very much alive. Syndi was diagnosed with stage four Ovarian cancer three years ago. All but one doctor told her to get her effects in order. The one doctor who didn't tell her to plan for death bombed her with nine months of chemo and gave her a full year of remission--time she has used to watch her children get married, to spend two Christmases with me, and to soak a tiny bit more out of life than the other doctors would have given her. Sheryl had a lobe of her lung removed a year ago to get rid of a carcinoid tumor. Last week her one-year checkup revealed another suspicious growth which will be examined closely sometime today.

These things are personal, private, and complicated. The decisions involved should also remain personal, private, and complicated. Once one becomes an advocate and uploads videos to YouTube and issues press releases, they at the very minimum are offering up their actions as if they are laudable. But do not--we CANNOT--know the real truth of her motivations, and we do not--we CANNOT--know whether her decision is one that we ought to recommend others take. I do not think Hans would make it--he didn't. I do not think Syndi would make it--she didn't. I do not think Sheryl would make it--she didn't.

I fully support Brittany's choice being a legal a personal one. I do not wish to call her "brave" or "courageous". I do not know that she was.
mastermindreader
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Who can really say in an ultimate sense? The fact remains that she made the decision herself. I don't believe that it was made for her by others. Those are the cases that I think raise more serious issues.

And I do believe that Brittany's decision illustrated that she did have the courage of her convictions.
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