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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
I don't admire having the courage of one's convictions unless those convictions are admirable. Perhaps hers were, and perhaps hers weren't.
I would prefer that we human beings have a conviction that life is beautiful and worth preserving at great cost. What cost? I suppose when it is ones own life, one should have the right to answer that question. When one publicizes their answer, we as a society have a right to question it. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
IMO, it's kind of problematic to "fully support" her choice being a legal one while thinking that it should "remain private." Perhaps when that choice is widely recognized, that won't be the case. But while (American) society accepts (legally) such choices in more than 10% of the states those who would like to see them legally permitted need articulate spokespeople willing to share their experiences.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote: I don't see it as problematic at all. The law supports the making of private choices. That's exactly what happened here. What I was trying to suggest is that it is problematic to publicize a choice particular choice without bringing an additional question into the mix of not only whether the choice should have been hers, but whether the choice was a good one. The former I do not doubt. The latter is none of my business, and shouldn't be. Quote:
Perhaps when that choice is widely recognized, that won't be the case. But while (American) society accepts (legally) such choices in more than 10% of the states those I would agree with that statement. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, stoneunhinged wrote: ...in five states out of 50.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote: On this matter, that is true. (But Lobo, you love to point out that Marijuana is illegal in all fifty states--by which you mean illegal according to federal law. I myself was claiming that the right to privacy--you know, shadows and penumbras and all that--is a federal one. More importantly (remember I'm a philosopher and not a lawyer), I think the right to privacy--and with it, the right to make private decisions about things like sexuality, procreation, and ending ones life--is a moral right, and not just a legal one. But I digress.) |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
If a moral right is not a legal right, then there's an injustice, and injustices tend to need the public eye shined on them to change. Ms. Maynard's final days probably would have been easier had she kept her decision private, but instead, she spent some of her limited remaining time on earth sharing her story, educating the public, and fostering empathy in many people who haven't had a personal connection to the issue. Personally, I'd have been sorely tempted to hoard time with my family and friends, eat pizza, and play cards. Her choice, OTOH, may very well speed up the process by which a moral right becomes a legal one. So whether or not her choice was "correct," I find it laudable.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote: I would agree with your statement in its entirety. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Jeff- I don't understand. You've just agreed "in its entirely" with Lobo's statement that whether or not Ms. Maynard's choice was correct, he finds it laudable.
Earlier, though, you wrote "I don't admire having the courage of one's convictions unless those convictions are admirable. Perhaps hers were, and perhaps hers weren't." Unless you disagree that "laudable" and "admirable" are synonyms*, your statement that her convictions were, perhaps, not laudable, seems to conflict with your "complete" agreement with Lobo. So, just to be clear, do you agree that her decision was laudable? (I, obviously, do agree that it was.) ______________________________________________________________ * laud·a·ble ˈlôdəb(ə)l/ adjective adjective: laudable (of an action, idea, or goal) deserving praise and commendation. "laudable though the aim might be, the results have been criticized" synonyms: praiseworthy, commendable, admirable, meritorious, worthy, deserving, creditable, estimable "thanked for their laudable contributions of time and talent" antonyms: shameful |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: I find myself in the same position as Laurie, thinking I'm being clear when I'm apparently not being clear. I think that her public decision was laudable. I do not know whether her private decision was laudable. It seems to me that it is often the case that we celebrate people for making public statements for good causes, yet we do not know if their motivations were worth celebration. I have also made it clear that this is not entirely abstract to me: both of my sisters have cancer, one of whom will probably die a relatively excruciating death in the near future. If I seem to contradict myself, it is because this involves more than legal or political positioning, and I am trying to express ideas which have an fairly large emotional impact on me. And Bob, don't insult me by posting definitions. As you probably know, I have the entire Oxford English Dictionary at my fingertips should I misunderstand a word. Should I post definitions of "motivation" and "conviction" to make my point clearer? |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
Sorry, Jeff. That wasn't at all intended to be an insult- simply to support my contention that "laudable" and "admirable" are indeed synonyms, in case that was questioned by anyone else reading my post. (I had to double check for myself before I posted my message, so I looked it up just to be sure.)
But I'd rather not discuss the issue further if it is personally upsetting to you or others. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Sorry, but I'm a bit frustrated that no one seems to get my distinction between actions and motives.
Please be clear that I am not criticizing Brittany in any way. I am participating in a discussion, and in the development of the discussion I have made a digression regarding questions of what is public and private and where advocacy and personal motivations can get blurry. That's all. I agree with Lobo that her public statement of taking charge with regard to her own death was a laudable one. I see no contradiction in pointing out that her private motivation for doing so might have been less than what I would wish my own sister to have. |
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mastermindreader 1949 - 2017 Seattle, WA 12586 Posts |
And again, I apologize if my posts have upset you or if you feel I insulted you. Neither was my intention.
I see no reason to question her motives because I've seen no evidence to suggest they were any different from those she expressed publicly. |
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tommy Eternal Order Devil's Island 16544 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote: No.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.
Tommy |
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: Thanks. Here are a few to start. At what point (if any) would you make the choice to kill yourself? At what point (if any) would you support loved ones killing themselves? What is the range of motives that people have for killing themselves? Is killing oneself an act of courage or an act of cowardice? Or is that a loaded bifurcation?
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote: Neither have I. This whole conversation is a bit too abstract, I suppose. I guess the problem is that I admire her firmness and political engagement, but also mourn the loss of a human being who made a fateful and final decision that should not necessarily be imitated. The point is a bit too subtle (as many of my points are) and has perhaps gotten lost in translation. For me the question is not simply about dealing with death, but about dealing with cancer. I'm not wise, and don't pretend to be. But all of our discussion regarding the right to dignity in death has brushed aside any discussion about the dignity of dealing with cancer. A young woman's right to choose to avoid that particular indignity says something (to me, at least) about what dignity means for those who make a different decision. But I am not offended, Bob. That's why I put a smiley after the Oxford English Dictionary comment. Perhaps it was before your heavy involvement here in the Not Very Magical forum, but I occasionally used to brag that one of the percs of my job is that the library downstairs has two copies of the OED, and my university Internet account gives me free access to the entire online OED. I'm a very wealthy man. At least when it comes to dictionaries. |
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rockwall Special user 762 Posts |
For all those here that support and find laudable and brave her decision to end her life, do you feel the same about Robin Williams? Do you believe his decision was laudable and brave and deserves support? If so, I don't recall reading those sentiments on his RIP topic.
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landmark Inner circle within a triangle 5194 Posts |
What I'm going to say here is probably completely unfair. I have no way of knowing if it is true. But I do want to express a thought that was running through my mind when I viewed Britanny's video.
She seemed like such a good, lively interesting adventurous person in love with danger and experience. I am wondering if consciously or unconsciously she considered killing herself as her final dangerous adventure.
Click here to get Gerald Deutsch's Perverse Magic: The First Sixteen Years
All proceeds to Open Heart Magic charity. |
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LobowolfXXX Inner circle La Famiglia 1196 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, rockwall wrote: I think it's a good question and a relevant one. I expect that many will disagree with me on that, which is why I'm posting this despite the fact that I'm not going to address it out of past observation that (pure)suicide-related topics tend to hit too many people too personally for me to feel comfortable participating in a discussion.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley. "...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us." |
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stoneunhinged Inner circle 3067 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, rockwall wrote: This question gets to the heart of what concerns me. The big difference is that Robin did not put up videos or make himself an advocate of killing onesself. He just did it. Please, I repeat: I am not critizing Brittany. But her actions and advocacy have raised issues worth discussing. Advocating suicide is understandably controversial. Are the pains of depression somehow lesser than the pains of cancer? |
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silvercup Loyal user 223 Posts |
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, rockwall wrote: Yes I do. Yes. Does it have to be in print to be real? |
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