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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Not very magical, still... » » RIP Brittany Maynard (1 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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stoneunhinged
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I don't admire having the courage of one's convictions unless those convictions are admirable. Perhaps hers were, and perhaps hers weren't.

I would prefer that we human beings have a conviction that life is beautiful and worth preserving at great cost. What cost? I suppose when it is ones own life, one should have the right to answer that question. When one publicizes their answer, we as a society have a right to question it.
LobowolfXXX
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IMO, it's kind of problematic to "fully support" her choice being a legal one while thinking that it should "remain private." Perhaps when that choice is widely recognized, that won't be the case. But while (American) society accepts (legally) such choices in more than 10% of the states those who would like to see them legally permitted need articulate spokespeople willing to share their experiences.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
IMO, it's kind of problematic to "fully support" her choice being a legal one while thinking that it should "remain private."


I don't see it as problematic at all. The law supports the making of private choices. That's exactly what happened here.

What I was trying to suggest is that it is problematic to publicize a choice particular choice without bringing an additional question into the mix of not only whether the choice should have been hers, but whether the choice was a good one. The former I do not doubt. The latter is none of my business, and shouldn't be.

Quote:
Perhaps when that choice is widely recognized, that won't be the case. But while (American) society accepts (legally) such choices in more than 10% of the states those
who would like to see them legally permitted need articulate spokespeople willing to share their experiences.


I would agree with that statement.
LobowolfXXX
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On Nov 5, 2014, stoneunhinged wrote:
The law supports the making of private choices.


...in five states out of 50.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, stoneunhinged wrote:
The law supports the making of private choices.


...in five states out of 50.


On this matter, that is true.

(But Lobo, you love to point out that Marijuana is illegal in all fifty states--by which you mean illegal according to federal law. I myself was claiming that the right to privacy--you know, shadows and penumbras and all that--is a federal one. More importantly (remember I'm a philosopher and not a lawyer), I think the right to privacy--and with it, the right to make private decisions about things like sexuality, procreation, and ending ones life--is a moral right, and not just a legal one. But I digress.)
LobowolfXXX
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If a moral right is not a legal right, then there's an injustice, and injustices tend to need the public eye shined on them to change. Ms. Maynard's final days probably would have been easier had she kept her decision private, but instead, she spent some of her limited remaining time on earth sharing her story, educating the public, and fostering empathy in many people who haven't had a personal connection to the issue. Personally, I'd have been sorely tempted to hoard time with my family and friends, eat pizza, and play cards. Her choice, OTOH, may very well speed up the process by which a moral right becomes a legal one. So whether or not her choice was "correct," I find it laudable.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
If a moral right is not a legal right, then there's an injustice, and injustices tend to need the public eye shined on them to change. Ms. Maynard's final days probably would have been easier had she kept her decision private, but instead, she spent some of her limited remaining time on earth sharing her story, educating the public, and fostering empathy in many people who haven't had a personal connection to the issue. Personally, I'd have been sorely tempted to hoard time with my family and friends, eat pizza, and play cards. Her choice, OTOH, may very well speed up the process by which a moral right becomes a legal one. So whether or not her choice was "correct," I find it laudable.


I would agree with your statement in its entirety.
mastermindreader
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Jeff- I don't understand. You've just agreed "in its entirely" with Lobo's statement that whether or not Ms. Maynard's choice was correct, he finds it laudable.

Earlier, though, you wrote "I don't admire having the courage of one's convictions unless those convictions are admirable. Perhaps hers were, and perhaps hers weren't."

Unless you disagree that "laudable" and "admirable" are synonyms*, your statement that her convictions were, perhaps, not laudable, seems to conflict with your "complete" agreement with Lobo.

So, just to be clear, do you agree that her decision was laudable?

(I, obviously, do agree that it was.)
______________________________________________________________

* laud·a·ble
ˈlôdəb(ə)l/
adjective
adjective: laudable

(of an action, idea, or goal) deserving praise and commendation.
"laudable though the aim might be, the results have been criticized"
synonyms: praiseworthy, commendable, admirable, meritorious, worthy, deserving, creditable, estimable
"thanked for their laudable contributions of time and talent"
antonyms: shameful
stoneunhinged
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On Nov 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Jeff- I don't understand. You've just agreed "in its entirely" with Lobo's statement that whether or not Ms. Maynard's choice was correct, he finds it laudable.



So, just to be clear, do you agree that her decision was laudable?



I find myself in the same position as Laurie, thinking I'm being clear when I'm apparently not being clear.

I think that her public decision was laudable. I do not know whether her private decision was laudable.

It seems to me that it is often the case that we celebrate people for making public statements for good causes, yet we do not know if their motivations were worth celebration.

I have also made it clear that this is not entirely abstract to me: both of my sisters have cancer, one of whom will probably die a relatively excruciating death in the near future. If I seem to contradict myself, it is because this involves more than legal or political positioning, and I am trying to express ideas which have an fairly large emotional impact on me.

And Bob, don't insult me by posting definitions. As you probably know, I have the entire Oxford English Dictionary at my fingertips should I misunderstand a word. Smile Should I post definitions of "motivation" and "conviction" to make my point clearer?
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Sorry, Jeff. That wasn't at all intended to be an insult- simply to support my contention that "laudable" and "admirable" are indeed synonyms, in case that was questioned by anyone else reading my post. (I had to double check for myself before I posted my message, so I looked it up just to be sure.)

But I'd rather not discuss the issue further if it is personally upsetting to you or others.
stoneunhinged
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Sorry, but I'm a bit frustrated that no one seems to get my distinction between actions and motives.

Please be clear that I am not criticizing Brittany in any way. I am participating in a discussion, and in the development of the discussion I have made a digression regarding questions of what is public and private and where advocacy and personal motivations can get blurry. That's all.

I agree with Lobo that her public statement of taking charge with regard to her own death was a laudable one. I see no contradiction in pointing out that her private motivation for doing so might have been less than what I would wish my own sister to have.
mastermindreader
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And again, I apologize if my posts have upset you or if you feel I insulted you. Neither was my intention.

I see no reason to question her motives because I've seen no evidence to suggest they were any different from those she expressed publicly.
tommy
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, LobowolfXXX wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, magicalaurie wrote:
I'm not arguing. I think that's the problem here. You're looking for an argument. Is counterpoint an argument, or the other side of the same coin?

Why would you think I'd be interested in taking Brittany's freedom from her when I've opposed such a thing from the top of this thread? Can't you see my concern is the same as yours?


Perhaps because you've seemed to agree with Tommy, who thinks that 1) it should be illegal, and 2) the right to die movement is driven by the desire to kill off huge numbers of people for financial reasons. And because you seem focused on the potential issues in an Oregon case (though, granted, the details are obviously very important), while most of the people who agree with Bob and me are probably more concerned with the 45 states that don't recognize the right at all.


No.
If there is a single truth about Magic, it is that nothing on earth so efficiently evades it.

Tommy
landmark
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 4, 2014, landmark wrote:
Apples, oranges.
I don't want to speak for laurie, but I think our feelings are similar here:
The legal question is the less interesting one. There are other things to talk about.


So let's talk about them. Care to give us a few questions that you feel we should talk about on this issue? (I'll give my honest opinions. And I'm sure others will as well.)


Thanks.
Here are a few to start.
At what point (if any) would you make the choice to kill yourself?
At what point (if any) would you support loved ones killing themselves?
What is the range of motives that people have for killing themselves?
Is killing oneself an act of courage or an act of cowardice? Or is that a loaded bifurcation?
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
I see no reason to question her motives because I've seen no evidence to suggest they were any different from those she expressed publicly.


Neither have I.

This whole conversation is a bit too abstract, I suppose. I guess the problem is that I admire her firmness and political engagement, but also mourn the loss of a human being who made a fateful and final decision that should not necessarily be imitated. The point is a bit too subtle (as many of my points are) and has perhaps gotten lost in translation.

For me the question is not simply about dealing with death, but about dealing with cancer. I'm not wise, and don't pretend to be. But all of our discussion regarding the right to dignity in death has brushed aside any discussion about the dignity of dealing with cancer. A young woman's right to choose to avoid that particular indignity says something (to me, at least) about what dignity means for those who make a different decision.

But I am not offended, Bob. That's why I put a smiley after the Oxford English Dictionary comment. Perhaps it was before your heavy involvement here in the Not Very Magical forum, but I occasionally used to brag that one of the percs of my job is that the library downstairs has two copies of the OED, and my university Internet account gives me free access to the entire online OED. I'm a very wealthy man. At least when it comes to dictionaries.
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For all those here that support and find laudable and brave her decision to end her life, do you feel the same about Robin Williams? Do you believe his decision was laudable and brave and deserves support? If so, I don't recall reading those sentiments on his RIP topic.
landmark
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What I'm going to say here is probably completely unfair. I have no way of knowing if it is true. But I do want to express a thought that was running through my mind when I viewed Britanny's video.

She seemed like such a good, lively interesting adventurous person in love with danger and experience. I am wondering if consciously or unconsciously she considered killing herself as her final dangerous adventure.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, rockwall wrote:
For all those here that support and find laudable and brave her decision to end her life, do you feel the same about Robin Williams? Do you believe his decision was laudable and brave and deserves support? If so, I don't recall reading those sentiments on his RIP topic.


I think it's a good question and a relevant one. I expect that many will disagree with me on that, which is why I'm posting this despite the fact that I'm not going to address it out of past observation that (pure)suicide-related topics tend to hit too many people too personally for me to feel comfortable participating in a discussion.
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
stoneunhinged
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Quote:
On Nov 5, 2014, rockwall wrote:
For all those here that support and find laudable and brave her decision to end her life, do you feel the same about Robin Williams? Do you believe his decision was laudable and brave and deserves support? If so, I don't recall reading those sentiments on his RIP topic.


This question gets to the heart of what concerns me.

The big difference is that Robin did not put up videos or make himself an advocate of killing onesself. He just did it.

Please, I repeat: I am not critizing Brittany. But her actions and advocacy have raised issues worth discussing.

Advocating suicide is understandably controversial. Are the pains of depression somehow lesser than the pains of cancer?
silvercup
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On Nov 5, 2014, rockwall wrote:
For all those here that support and find laudable and brave her decision to end her life, do you feel the same about Robin Williams? Do you believe his decision was laudable and brave and deserves support? If so, I don't recall reading those sentiments on his RIP topic.


Yes I do.
Yes.
Does it have to be in print to be real?
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