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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Girl 'sees' broken bones (0 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Jonathan Townsend
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Funny premise, seeing x-rays.

Can easily design simple test to check this kind of thing. What is the date on that penny I swallowed an hour ago? Easier still, here is a dental chart. Draw in my fillings on the diagram.

How many notches on the key in my hand?

Very easy to design tests of size, density and detail resolution.

The rest is entertainment.

The guy with the records is funny. Simple enough to give him some vinyl he as not heard and ask him to hum what he perceives. Again, the rest is entertainment.

I guess we're all getting prepared for the superbowl.
...to all the coins I've dropped here
John Clarkson
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Quote:
On 2004-01-31 11:20, Jonathan Townsend wrote:
Funny premise, seeing x-rays.

Can easily design simple test to check this kind of thing... what is the date on that Penney I swallowed an hour ago? ...
Jonathan, a single penny would not prove much. Swallow oh, say, several thousand pennies and then I'll guess and a committee can count how often I am correct. A few specifics, though: (1) I insist that the list of the dates on the pennies be compiled before you swallow them; (2) we get to shake you as violently as necessary to insure that all the dates are visible; (3) you bear the expense of any needed medical treatment.

Smile
John D. Clarkson, S.O.B. (Sacred Omphaloskeptic Brotherhood)
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"There is nothing more important to a magician than keeping secrets. Probably because so many of them are Gay."
—Peggy, from King of the Hill (Sleight of Hank)
*Bro*
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Some people are naturally more intuitive than others.
Tantrik
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Randi has been shown up more then once, but due to the nature of his "challenge," he can't lose. On TV he admitted that he was "flummoxed" by fire walkers. The case of the dentist was the same. There was also a dog that would watch TV only if a dog was on TV. At first he said it was impossible. When he saw it he admitted it was valid.

The simple out: if it's proven to be real, he just says that it's a natural ability.

If you read all of the clauses of his challenge, they are all in his favor, including that he can say ANYTHING about you and you agree not to sue him. If I had the power to start things on fire and could burn his butt to a cinder, I still wouldn't bother with his highly one-sided "challenge."
MacGyver
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I like that the other top stories on that site for the girl were:

- "Pushkin, Lenin and Stalin Live in India"

- "Are Dragons For Real?"

and

- "Russians conquered Mars 30 years ago!"

What great journalism.
chicagoman
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-----
"But how could he identify on one recording the nationality of the orchestra? According to Lintgen, that recording had an upturned edge. This feature identified it as being unique to the Deutsche Gramophone label. Since the recording was a digital
recording "because of the lack of 'junk' in between the grooves," Lintgen knew that Deutsche Grammophone..."
-----

It's amazing what SOME (NOT ALL!) skeptics will believe as long as it fits what they think are normal senses and deductions or basically their concept of reality. It reminds me of how effective the mentalist's disclaimer must be when they say they are using "body language and NLP" and "not paranormal abilities".

cm
Scott Xavier
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The burden of proof lies upon the claimant. Until we see reproduceable real evidence with our own eyes, who can blame us for being skeptical?
John Clarkson
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Quote:
On 2004-02-02 02:20, Tantrik wrote:
Randi has been shown up more then once, but due to the nature of his "challenge," he can't lose.
...
The simple out: if it's proven to be real, he just says that it's a natural ability.

Care to offer specifics? What "paranormal powers" have been proven real that Randi has denied? How were they proved? Dates, places, protocols, please.

1) The "dentist" was not a dentist. (2) He did not claim paranormal powers. (3) He never applied for the prize. (4) The test was conducted for Time Magazine, not as a part of the Randi "challenge."

If you are going to impugn a man's integrity with negative speculation about the legitimacy of his offer, I'd expect you to get your facts straight.

The response I got from James Randi was to search his website using "Lintgen" as a search term. Haven't had time to do so, but plan to later. In the meantime, Tantrik, maybe you can offer something more than gratuitous assertions.

:nose:

Quote:
On 2004-02-02 15:30, chicagoman wrote:
...
It's amazing what SOME (NOT ALL!) skeptics will believe as long as it fits what they think are normal senses and deductions or basically their concept of reality.,,
cm


Good grief, chicagoman, what do you want? Lintgen says, "It's not a paranormal power, and here is the way I do it." Are skeptics, then, supposed to respond, "Oh, no, my good man. You are deluded. Sure, what you say makes sense and, now that you point it out, we can see how this amazing natural ability could work, but you are simply wrong. You have a paranormal power (not merely an abnormal ability), in spite of what you say. Please ask for and take the million dollars!"

Smile
John D. Clarkson, S.O.B. (Sacred Omphaloskeptic Brotherhood)
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"There is nothing more important to a magician than keeping secrets. Probably because so many of them are Gay."
—Peggy, from King of the Hill (Sleight of Hank)
chicagoman
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That's right, Tantrik, the dentist did not claim "paranormal powers"; he claimed he could identify the tiny markings on a phonograph and tell what song (out of all the songs in the world) was recorded on it (and even in what country the song was orchestrated).

Well, now, since that's not "paranormal" but I guess "scientific" (ahem), don't you know Randi is not responsible to disprove the dentist? In fact, since the dentist describes his non-paranormal method to do it, that MUST be how he ACTUALLY did it. I mean it was TESTED by a genuine SKEPTIC. And, if a skeptic says the guy can read songs from micro-markings on a phonograph, you know it's gotta be true, because SKEPTICS are too smart to believe in "paranormal things", and they're never wrong.

To Clarkson:

If a mentalist CLAIMS he is using body language to tell what choice a person is going to make, does a scientist just assume that the mentalist does not have paranormal abilities but instead has remarkable abilities to read body language JUST AS HE CLAIMS?

If this is so (or if you or anyone actually believes this dentist is doing what he claimm), then this shows me more than ever how easy it is to fool so-called scientists and skeptics.

cm
John Clarkson
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Quote:
On 2004-02-02 17:12, chicagoman wrote:
That's right, Tantrik, the Dentist not claim "paranormal powers", he claimed he could identify the tiny markings on a phonograph and tell what song (out of all the songs in the world) was recorded on it (and even in what country the song was orchestrated)....
cm
The man made no such claim, chicagoman. If you have a point, make it with facts instead of fabricating stories to support your position. Read carefully the articles posted above, and you will see that the range of music was limited both as to date and as to type. No claim was made as to country, but, fortuitously, he was able to identify a German brand record from a physical attribute that he could point to.

Lintgen claimed no paranormal powers and revealed the method he used. I think I'll take Lintgen's word on this one over yours, chicagoman. Of course, if you'd like to test him to prove him wrong and establish his paranormal abilities, have at it! I'll look forward to the results of your published research.
Smile
John D. Clarkson, S.O.B. (Sacred Omphaloskeptic Brotherhood)
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"There is nothing more important to a magician than keeping secrets. Probably because so many of them are Gay."
—Peggy, from King of the Hill (Sleight of Hank)
chicagoman
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Clarkson,

You seem to have a biased interpretation of what I'm saying based on some preconceived prejudice you're bringing into this conversation. (Don't worry, the best of scientists do it.)

I NEVER claimed the dentist had paranormal abilities. I just don't believe, as you do, that the GUY CAN READ PHONOGRAPH MARKINGS AND TELL WHAT SONG IS ON IT.

And if this experiment that was conducted is all it takes to convince you that he can (or because he says he can), then I would say science is wrong more often than I even thought!


cm
John Clarkson
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Quote:
On 2004-02-02 17:36, chicagoman wrote:
Clarkson,
You may address me as "Mr. Clarkson," "John," or "Your Excellency." Perhaps it varies from one part of the country to another, but where I come from, addressing a person by surname without a courtesy title is hostile and rude.
Quote:

You seem to have a biased interpretation of what I'm saying based on some preconceived prejudice you're bringing into this conversation.


I do have a definite bias that, in an argument, one should not misrepresent facts. Is there some other prejudice you'd like to point out?

Quote:
I NEVER claimed the Dentist had paranormal abilities. I just don't believe, as you do, that the GUY CAN READ PHONOGRAPH MARKINGS AND TELL WHAT SONG IS ON IT.

And if this experiment that was conducted is all it takes to convince you that he can ...


Well, he certainly seemed to do that under fair conditions. Would you like to critique the methodology or offer some evidence as to why he'd lie about it? As to what I actually believe, chicagoman, of course you cannot know that. Until I tell you what I believe, kindly refrain from defining my beliefs for me; I do it quite well on my own.

Actually, you said:
Quote:
Well, now, since that's not "paranormal" but I guess "scientific" (ahem), don't you know Randi is not responsible to disprove the dentist? In fact, since the dentist describes his non-paranormal method to do it, that MUST be how he ACTUALLY did it. I mean it was TESTED by a genuine SKEPTIC. And, if a skeptic says the guy can read songs from micro-markings on a phonograph, you know it's gotta be true, because SKEPTICS are too smart to believe in "paranormal things", and they're never wrong.


Your sarcastic tone, chicagoman, sure sounds to me as though you were dismissing "normal" explanations in favor of a "paranormal" explanation. If that's not what you meant, perhaps the lesson is that sarcasm isn't the best way to express yourself.

What a skeptic would claim is simply this:
    Lintgen claims to be able to do something with normal observation and amazing deductive abilities. After testing this claim, we have no reason to believe he is not doing what he says he is doing.

Again, you grossly misrepresent facts to support your position. I'm sure you could construct a more honest argument, if you tried. For instance, if you don't think it was a demonstration of paranormal power (that he lied about and which Randi denied), perhaps you think he used some artifice and trickery. Maybe you could point out the flaws in the testing procedure that allowed him to get away with it.

Now, down to the other misstatements of fact that I pointed out in a previous post. You failed to address them.

Smile
John D. Clarkson, S.O.B. (Sacred Omphaloskeptic Brotherhood)
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"There is nothing more important to a magician than keeping secrets. Probably because so many of them are Gay."
—Peggy, from King of the Hill (Sleight of Hank)
Scott Xavier
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Here gentlemen:

From the very first, he admitted that he had a system, and that it was not paranormal. After he did the stunt — very successfully — he explained to us how it was done, and we were very satisfied. At no time was the prize offered, at no time did he try to claim it. The New York Times, TIME Magazine, and the Los Angeles Times ran articles on the matter that made that fact quite clear.

Go to http://www.amh.org/docs/intlo.htm and http://www.snopes.com/music/media/reader.htm and see the whole story. That information was available to those who spread this malicious lie, but they simply persist in the lie because it serves to discredit me.
chicagoman
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Clarky's last post:

"Well, he certainly seemed to do that under fair conditions. Would you like to critique the methodology or offer some evidence as to why he'd lie about it? As to what I actually believe, chicagoman, of course you cannot know that. Until I tell you what I believe, kindly refrain from defining my beliefs for me; I do it quite well on my own."

---some post before that.
"Lintgen claimed no paranormal powers and revealed the method he used. I think I'll take Lintgen's word on this one over yours, chicagoman."

Now, Clarky, doesn't that SOUND like you believe that the Dentist does what he claims. And if you don't believe it, then why do you criticize anybody who criticizes the experiment, and at the same time you now say you don't believe in the results?

Maybe you're right: I can't tell you what you believe in, any more than I could tell you which way the wind will blow tomorrow.
John Clarkson
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Quote:
On 2004-02-02 22:36, chicagoman wrote:
... Now, Clarky...why do [1]you criticize anybody [2]who criticizes the experiment, and at the same time [3]you now say you don't believe in the results? (Bracketed numbers added.)
...
To answer the three nested statements above:
[1] I don't.
[2] You didn't (in any meaningful way).
[3] I didn't.

Your willingness to distort and apparent need to evade are exceeded only by your intentional poor manners. I'm definitely not interested.

Good luck, chicagoman, whoever you are.

:nose:
John D. Clarkson, S.O.B. (Sacred Omphaloskeptic Brotherhood)
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"There is nothing more important to a magician than keeping secrets. Probably because so many of them are Gay."
—Peggy, from King of the Hill (Sleight of Hank)
Bill Hallahan
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Quote:
Jonathan, a single penny would not prove much. Swallow oh, say, several thousand pennies and then I'll guess and a committee can count how often I am correct.


Mr. Clarkson, I believe specifying multiple pennies is off-topic. After all, this is the Penny for your Thoughts forum. Smile

With regard to the girl mentioned in the first post in this topic:

Hoaxes only require a well-written article to become established. (One example is the book “Chariots of the Gods”, which the author finally admitted was a total fabrication after being confronted with a number of inconsistencies. There are numerous other examples.) Many people require no proof for unusual claims. A true statement that is unpleasant is less easily swallowed than a false fantastic tale of tremendous abilities.

I require proof because I expect information transfer to occur within the framework of known physical laws. The fact that we don’t know everything today does not allow me to believe anything at all without at least some confirmation. A third party statement is of little worth as proof. Lies are printed every day. Consider an article calling the girl a fake. That could be a lie, too. To believe anything without information is not rational. To expect a significant deviation from the norm of physical laws without information is also irrational. She could be real. Aliens could also invade us from another dimension. Barricade yourself in your home!

Note I am not saying she has no powers. I am simply saying I don’t believe it until something more than a discussion in a chat room occurs. If she is so extraordinary, then I expect a publication other than the Weekly World News will soon report about her.

If I were to state I had extraordinary powers, and I provided a meager example, it would be enough for me to attract followers. The same is true for anyone else here. I am not unique in that respect.

If you don’t believe in your heart that the aliens will be here tomorrow, then you too my friends, are skeptics. Consider that.
Humans make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to create boredom. Quite astonishing.
- The character of ‘Death’ in the movie "Hogswatch"
John Clarkson
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Quote:
On 2004-02-02 23:22, Bill Hallahan wrote:
Mr. Clarkson, I believe specifying multiple pennies is off-topic. After all, this is the Penny for your Thoughts forum. Smile

Well, at least we have a healthy estimate of their value... Smile

Quote:
Note I am not saying she has no powers. I am simply saying I don’t believe it until something more than a discussion in a chat room occurs. ...
...
If you don’t believe in your heart that the aliens will be here tomorrow, then you too my friends, are skeptics. Consider that.


We can speculate about what may or may not be possible, but, at some point, we have to decide what is probable enough that we are willing to rely upon it. Those things, I think, that comport with our current knowledge of physical laws require less evidence for me to be able to consider them probable enough to act upon. Those things that seem to contradict known physical laws will require greater evidence for me to accept them as probable enough to rely upon. Another factor, I suspect, is the potential consequence of a wrong decision. If the consequences of being wrong are trivial, I suppose I demand a lower standard of proof. Yet another factor (I hesitate to admit) may be the social implications of holding any given belief. (I need to think more about that one!)

So, the meta-issue is: how do we decide what we will believe (with enough certainty act upon it)? The calculus might be complex, and we may never reach consensus, but it might be interesting to discuss the variables involved in the decision. A related question is, "How consistent are we in applying whatever decision rule(s) we have?"

Smile
John D. Clarkson, S.O.B. (Sacred Omphaloskeptic Brotherhood)
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"There is nothing more important to a magician than keeping secrets. Probably because so many of them are Gay."
—Peggy, from King of the Hill (Sleight of Hank)
Scott Xavier
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John (Some of us Chicagoans have manners. I'd call you Mr. Clarkson, but I think we had this discussion before),

We believe in what we experience. Being rational and unbiased allows us to "perceive" what happens in the known universe and as such we form beliefs. The fear of the unknown and speculation seems to create false beliefs in the paranormal.

Why is everyone so prone to believe in something so unscientific and disproved as the supernatural, ie., X-ray eyes act?

Side Note: I am producing a 20-minute mind reading DVD for a demo video. It's in shooting now. In it you'll find a really cool X-Ray eye act in which I diagnose people I randomly meet at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago, as well as telepathy demonstrations, and yes---even spoon bending.
John Clarkson
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Dr_Zodiac,

First name is great (preferred, actually). Your DVD sounds like fun. Will it be available to the public, or will you use it just for selected promo?

I was in Chicago briefly just after the 9/11 tragedy. The airlines were desperately trying to get people back into flight, and offered incredible deals. As I recall, I flew from LAX to Chicago for $1.00! I was surprised at how lovely the downtown area was.

I don't know why we are prone to believe in things like X-Ray vision. Maybe it's because that by elevating a vivid fantasy to the status of belief we convince ourselves that our existence is not as banal as it often seems.

Well, now I'm depressed!

Smile
John D. Clarkson, S.O.B. (Sacred Omphaloskeptic Brotherhood)
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"There is nothing more important to a magician than keeping secrets. Probably because so many of them are Gay."
—Peggy, from King of the Hill (Sleight of Hank)
Scott Xavier
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John,

You know I knew that being empathic and all I can detect when others are depressed. Of course, this gift too isn't supernatural.

So when and if the X-Ray Eye girl comes to Chicago or CA, we'll have to take a look through her and see if anyone can get any rational scientific info.

A cool experiment would be to lead line her clothing to see if she can actually work her magic through lead.

I'm not sure; the DVD is coming along nicely. I just picked up a film quality camera that the production crew said they needed. I'm robbing my piggy bank to fund this one. I'll either have a great pilot or a superb demo video. I was getting sick of always having friends follow me to gigs with camcorders, so I hired a few pros with some skills.

TTFN,
Scott - Doc
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