It was a great concept. I think Eric came off badly unfortunately.

I would really like to see one of these work. I hope he learned if he made a mistake or not. (I am not sure he did mind you. It just may be a concept ahead of its time.)

Don't give up!

I really feel bad for those who made commitments to make this work and now must make up for lost time.

For me, there were many lessons observed in what it takes to get something like this off the ground and how you can derail yourself quickly.

To be honest, one of the reasons I did not sign up is because I feared it might be cancelled. I would have turned downed shows for nothing. Sure enough I have a booking for that Saturday night.

I remember in the early 90's I signed for a marketing convention in Florida organized by Bev Bergeron. I was so looking forward to it. But it was cancelled also.

It is twice he has tried this concept which speaks volumes about how difficult it can be to pull off.

Perhaps that's one possibility...

I just learned about this convention, got really excited about it, tried to access the website, and then realized that it had been cancelled. Bummer After attending the East Coast Mind Jam last year, I was looking forward to a yearly convention in New Jersey. Eric did an excellent job last year. The Mind Jam was well attended and featured some of the best talent in the field. He's not out to make a quick buck -- he put a lot of effort in that convention and wanted to make the next one even better (the one complaint people had about last year's Mind Jam was the hotel and Eric vowed to book a better venue next time.) Eric, I hope you don't get discouraged. I'm looking forward to whatever your next convention will be.

I too tried to sign up only to find dead links.

Dan.

Yeah, it's been over a week now since this was announced and I would've thought for sure Eric or Scott would have been here to formally let everyone here know, but so far nothing. As many have stated, they came here to announce it and heavily over-promote it, but no other participation here and not even an explanation. If not for sbrundage informing the community, nothing would've been said. I think this was part of the problem all along. (So Steven, as a scheduled guest were you formally notified of the cancellation or is the facebook post how you learned of this?)

I would think members here, especially those that were considering this event and others that were supporting it, are at least due an update and explanation. I'm guessing they they don't want to address any questions, which is really sad. The whole event was how to conduct business professionally, and yet this happens without regard or explanation. Especially from Scott, who I would think would've been expected to handle this better and made the original announcement here. Scott's forums have not addressed it and in another forum here a questions has been asked which also remains unanswered. Seems like one of them may be throwing the other under the bus from by the facebook statement.

The first rule in business is great communications. This seems to have been off since the beginning of this after first being announced.

I feel badly for those that rearranged their schedule to appear or attend, although there were more guests scheduled than attendees.

Too bad, I would think we deserve better. I think how this is being handled will affect future attempts at this or similar events with these guys.

There could have been several ways to A.) prevent this, and B.) to save this, but this does not seem to be the case. This seemed to be slated to be more than just this convention as it appeared to be an entire business outline.

One of the problems I recognized immediately was there was no specific target audience. This was evident by the dates and guest list.

This also poses another, perhaps larger picture question. Are performers not willing to invest in the business side of their operations? Or was just this just poorly planned, presented and executed event?

I could say more but will stop for now.

I haven't read through this whole thread in a while, so I don't know if this was previously mentioned. This idea for a conference wasn't a unique idea.

Other business / marketing events occur for entertainers. There is Brad Ross' annual "It Factor Live" event, and also I saw that Matt Fore ran his "Entertainers Marketing Academy" this past fall, as well. (If you do a bit of reading on these events, you'll discover they don't just cover marketing... they take a holistic approach to the magic business.)

The KIDabra Conference has a "Biz Builders Day", and KAX (KIDabra Midyear) and Kapital Kidvention seem to have lectures on the business side of things. And Steve Kissell offers his "Family Entertainers Workshop". And those are just some I'm aware of... I'm sure there are more.

BTW, Brad Ross sells DVD sets of his past "It Factor Live" events, in case you can't attend in person.

- Donald

P.S. Before Brad Ross started doing his events, there were ones by Eric Paul, Jack Turk, and Dave Dee. Each had a different approach, and I think that Brad's approach is very interesting.

Some may feel that all the negative stuff on this thread helped with killing it.
Certainly did not help. But I guess that’s life.

Tom

I think you hit the nail on the head, MP.

When I was starting to plan my move to full time performer back in 1987, I would have wet my pants at the very notion of a conference like this. Effects, ideas, routines are wonderful -- and you have to assume that if someone is planning to do this for money that they have a solid grounding in all of the performance arts.

But there's also the area where many otherwise strong performers simply can't even begin to grasp which is the BUSINESS end. How do you market? What do you do with a client once you have them? What about websites...sales materials, contracts, invoicing, databases??? Most performers are inherently right brained people...and the same guy who can do the most difficult sleight or the ballsiest method in front of a thousand people grows faint at the very notion of selling what he does in a potentially indifferent market.

When Eric and Scott approached me about doing this project, I was genuinely excited -- not only because of what I'd share with the community...but also what I would learn. It was going to be an assembly of all kinds of different performers: kids entertainers, magicians, comedy guys as well as mentalists. Getting this group together would have been delightful...because we really CAN learn from each other

I still think it was a grand plan. They worked hard to promote it...but it simply didn't sell.

Why?

The only reasonable conclusion is that either a) it was marketed incorrectly or b) that the intended market didn't see this product as something they would be interested in...or saw a value attached to...or maybe a little of both.

Ultimately it is what it is. I still commend these guys for TRYING.

David

I agree with David. Having to disagree with Tom, I think there was much support and encouragement in this thread. Perhaps a bit of defensiveness created a few ruffled feathers, but all in all it was very encouraged and supported.

As identified earlier, I think the flaw pointed out quite early was the way it was being promoted and the inexperience and attitudes of those behind this event (in the area of event promotion, not performing).

There were several main problems with this as I see it. But as per Donald's post, it seems so odd to me and a problem in magic (unlike other types of entertainment) is how many of the people, programs and courses Donald mentioned are for and based on and around kids magicians. This is a great flaw in my opinion, but it how they want to be fed. There are many more types of magician's than just kids/families magicians, and they would be better served looking beyond just kids information or info for the kids market. Look at the Little Darlings section here. There is some of the worst business advice and topics I've ever seen anywhere there, regularly and consistently. The problem with all of this is it only perpetuates a continued separation from the rest of the industry, and breeds more "kids-only performers" thinking and mentalities. It's really quite sad. This event, mixing the two I'm sure contributed to part of the problem. Two entirely different approaches and mentalities.

David had some great perspectives, although perhaps overly optimistic and the guest lineup for this event was not defined and was all over the place (partially due to there being no target audience) as it was trying to be "something for everyone" and ultimately became a mishmosh comprised of individual specifics which ultimately created a general offering. Many of the guests would be of little or no interest to me and most I know, teach or coach, and I'm sure most people felt the same. It became a pick and choose of who/what you want to see and is of interest to each attendee, rather than all-encompassing lineup for everyone the entire event. No continuity.

To David's point I think it was promoted incorrectly and marketed from lay or general perspectives rather than professional. Yes, as expressed here by many, the marketing tactics were abrasive and when combined with the defensiveness created a desperate feeling from early on. I think many felt it might be cancelled or never happened which is why they took a wait and see attitude, plus the element of having to give up a weekend of work and income also created many to wait and see.

How were you notified of it's cancellation David? Were you offered any more details or an explanation than the facebook post?

On the other hand, at least there are some family and children's entertainers that are interested in the subject and are trying.

BTW, you haven't done enough research on some of these events if you think they only have info for kids magicians. For example, some of the speakers over the years at Brad's events have included Fred and Bobbie Becker, Nathan Burton, Joanie Spina, Ryan Joyce, etc.

- Donald

Some may feel as if it was simply people asking questions and the promoter went nuts for no reason. Some may feel exactly as I said as if there might not be enough value to take the time to invest in the event.

A shame because this may not have been an entirely unique idea it certainly is a good one.

But when a business seminar does not know how to answer questions from prospective buyers and reacts the way he did here I think it will hurt attendance. I think the negative stuff came from stress of trying to launch a new idea. I commend him fir trying twice now I guess.

I would like to see tgis work. I think he can make it work. It is a great idea. Maybe if it was run as a day as part of a larger event it would be easier to start.

On the other hand, at least there are some family and children's entertainers that are interested in the subject and are trying.

BTW, you haven't done enough research on some of these events if you think they only have info for kids magicians. For example, some of the speakers over the years at Brad's events have included Fred and Bobbie Becker, Nathan Burton, Joanie Spina, Ryan Joyce, etc.

- Donald [/quote]


I am well aware of these guys (and ladies) and their materials, even further back to Randy Charach, Eddie Tullock and others from way back.

My point was that for the most part kids entertainers seem to only want to learn only from other kids entertainers. Of course there are exception as yourself and charliecheckers here and a few others, but so many get completely lost and confused outside of the kids world and related products. Even the way most of them approach business is very different and unlike most other types of entertainers. It's very strange. Then when faced with actual legitimate business from others, they often resist and even find reasons against doing so. The one thing I have heard repeatedly more than any other things from kids entertainers are...

1. "That would never work for kids entertainers"
2. "That would never work in my area"

The most successful kids/family entertainers are the ones that have realized that their learning and education must extend beyond just kids resources and materials. I think that's one reason why certain guys like Danny Orleans, Zuchini, and others prevail and operate on a completely different level than most other kids performers.

It is very very hard to do something like this even when everything about it is positive. Any distraction in the beginning can make it
super hard and in some cases impossible. BUT, sometimes you have to go ahead with it anyway, even if you take a loss the first time in order
to prove that it can and will happen. A one day thing as Danny mentioned might be the best bet for something like this.

Much like starting a local magic club (which I have done) you may sit there with only a few to begin with until everyone sees it is working.

Donald is right there are many good events already that include the business part of magic. Honestly, I don’t see how you could have a convention
type meeting of any size without including those who do kidshows.

I don’t mean this in a bad way but those who don’t do kidshows just don’t socialize that well.
They like keeping things to themselves and are just not the sharing type.
They might do well with a golf convention.

Tom

You say it as if it is a bad thing not to just give away things you spent decades learning.

Also when guys who do try to share are constantly told how they have to go it maybe that is part of the reluctance.

No not a bad thing, just the way it is. And I’m not saying they should go work for nothing, they do get paid.
But you are right nobody is obligated to go.

Tom

Yea well now you get to the heart of it. Someone who has the information is in no way obligated to tell it to anyone. Add to that people who don't like the "way" free information is given and you have less people who bother to even try.

And many were not paid as much as having an opportunity to pitch. Big difference.

Add me to the list of folks disappointed to see this cancelled. We have many talented and highly successful magicians who have no problem with self-promotion but still don’t know squat about business. Their creative and differentiated acts almost drive awareness and demand. I don’t know the particulars for this event but agree a lack of perceived need or awareness of the event as the likely contributor. Truth be told, marketing is about creating demand. Often people don’t know what a new opportunity or experience might offer until we are either educated about it, experience it or hear about it being inspired by someone else’s experience. There are numerous ways to accomplish this but there has to be some discipline to the messaging and share of voice in creating this targeted awareness. But everything must begin with formulating and effective strategy: Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats, what does the customer need, what do we offer, etc. Do we need to move the customers’ thinking closer to what we offer or do we need to shift our offer to the customers’ needs. How do we establish transactable value our services?

I apologize from drifting from the MBU topic, but while I am pontificating, we need to think more broadly as professionals. Do our professional organizations exit for us to gather periodically to tell each other how great we are or are we looking to expand and elevate magic as an entertainment venue … Thus expanding the market? Aside for individuals’ efforts at self-promotion, little has been done to plan and fortify our industry …. And that is a shame as there is more innovation and talent than ever. Just my 2 cents worth.
Dan.