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Martin Pulman
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On Dec 2, 2014, ALEXANDRE wrote:
David, you assume Peter can't really read minds, you seem sure of it, how do you know that? Did he tell you? Did you read somewhere that it's "not possible"?


You are aware that Peter sells books detailing his approach? His methods and routining are ingenious and, yes, look like real mind-reading in his hands.

Which is what mentalism is all about, right?
ALEXANDRE
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Falty logic, Martin. Just because the guy publishes methods doesn't mean he can't really do it. Just because someone enjoys the art of magic and mentalism doesn't mean they can't actually use their intuitive abilities in some interesting way. I don't know, just saying.

I posted the question to David along the lines of this Max Maven exchange:


INTERVIEWER: "A lot of people who have seen your show, come out thinking that what you do is real, that you could read minds, so how do you respond to that?"

MAX MAVEN: Your question presumes that I can't.


You're welcome to address what Max Maven said here, Martin.
Martin Pulman
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It sounds to me that Max is leaving reasonable doubt in the audience's mind. Quite wise, I would think? Note, however, he didn't say "I CAN read minds for real".

Or are you claiming Max Maven believes he is actually psychic?

As to your point about "real" psychics enjoying mentalism. I suppose some well may, but I wouldn't imagine many "real" psychics perform it. Equally, I don't imagine many real guitarists spend weeks, months and years practising air guitar, but I guess it's not impossible.
yachanin
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On Nov 30, 2014, David Fillary wrote:
I met Peter Turner earlier this year and a room full of magicians were left stunned. His work just appears to have no possible method. He did stuff with cards (as we're magicians, he rarely does it with the public) and he put one card to the side. Then he asked me to name a card. I named a card, and it was that card. STUNNED. And can't fathom a method. He just took a card from my friend's deck.

But I know he can't read minds. I know that. I can't fathom any way he did it, but I know it wasn't through reading my mind. It will bug me for the rest of my life, but I love him for it. The only way it seems possible is for him to have read my mind (and predicted what card I would say before I said it), but I know it's not possible. So I'm left with my mind going in circles. It's the only explanation, but I know it's impossible...


Hi David,

One possible alternative is "chance" (and a ready follow-up effect using the card should the predication miss).

Regards, Steve
ALEXANDRE
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On Dec 2, 2014, Martin Pulman wrote:
It sounds to me that Max is leaving reasonable doubt in the audience's mind. Quite wise, I would think? Note, however, he didn't say "I CAN read minds for real".

Or are you claiming Max Maven believes he is actually psychic?

As to your point about "real" psychics enjoying mentalism. I suppose some well may, but I wouldn't imagine many "real" psychics perform it. Equally, I don't imagine many real guitarists spend weeks, months and years practising air guitar, but I guess it's not impossible.


Huge difference comparing guitarrist/air guitar and psychic/magic&mentalism. One of the giant pleasures of magic and mentalism are the various clever methods out there, the "puzzle" aspect of it as some may see it, and some people deeply enjoy that part of it, that's why there are so many arm-chair mentalists and mentalism collectors out there who almost never perform anything to anyone. I could very much see a "real psychic" enjoying learning, studying, and playing around with methods that teach people how to fake what they can do for real. Could be fun.


Max Maven is not afraid to allow his audience to believe he might be real. MANY mentalists are terrified by the notion as is evidenced by the many threads on here about "disclaimers" and all the very angry anti-psychic/paranormal stuff when a fellow performer comes forward with it.
Martin Pulman
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I agree Alexandre. You can enjoy mentalism whatever your day job. But if a "real" psychic reader uses deceptive techniques during their day job I would say they are, by definition, a fraud.
Slim King
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If a persons psychic abilities aren't effective 100% of the time it is only logical he'd want a back up plan.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
Martin Pulman
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On Dec 2, 2014, Slim King wrote:
If a persons psychic abilities aren't effective 100% of the time it is only logical he'd want a back up plan.


Why?
Slim King
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Why not?
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Martin Pulman
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Because if you are advertising yourself as a "real" psychic reader and you are no longer using "real" psychic abilities, you are no longer performing "real" psychic reading and you are, therefore, defrauding your customers who believe you are using "real" psychic abilities.

Therefore, anyone using mentalism techniques to do "real" psychic reading is a fraud. By definition.
IAIN
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2014, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 2, 2014, Slim King wrote:
If a persons psychic abilities aren't effective 100% of the time it is only logical he'd want a back up plan.

Why?

to be fair, why do we expect a real psychic to be 100% correct all the time? we don't expect a musician to always play a riff spot on, an actor to always remember their lines, or a footballer to always score from a free kick...

if such a person exists, it should be about how much better they are than average or guessing, under certain circumstances...

for example, a footballer who didn't warm up before a match, may be more prone to injury, not feel limber as much as one who did, so therefore his talent at (say, sprinting) is impeded...

we still have a hollywood definition of "psychic", maybe because we've not been able to test any real ones yet...though there is some evidence for some other related talents (remote viewing and so on)...

Posted: Dec 2, 2014 05:09 pm
Something that's tickled me though, is if you release work on how to give readings, and its not one page long and it just says "just use your psychic ability!" - then it by definition, something else isn't it...

its just that under certain theatrical/entertainment scenarios, you can pretend that it is if you want to...
I've asked to be banned
Martin Pulman
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When Uri failed to perform anything on Carson it actually increased his credibility with the public. A "real" psychic wouldn't be afraid to get it wrong.
Slim King
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I always think it's funny when someone who doesn't believe in something is the very first to tell everyone how it's supposed to work ... Smile
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2014, Martin Pulman wrote:
Because if you are advertising yourself as a "real" psychic reader and you are no longer using "real" psychic abilities, you are no longer performing "real" psychic reading and you are, therefore, defrauding your customers who believe you are using "real" psychic abilities.

Therefore, anyone using mentalism techniques to do "real" psychic reading is a fraud. By definition.


Slim, would you care to respond to my statement above? I'm very interested to know your ethical position on this. Do you believe a "real" psychic reader is justified in deceiving his/her clients?
Slim King
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Isn't it obvious?
In the exact same manner that Doctors of Medicine use placebo's to help in treating patients, Psychics use Mentalism effects to help their clients/sitters. It's a pretty basic concept. Smile
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David Fillary
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On Dec 2, 2014, ALEXANDRE wrote:
David, you assume Peter can't really read minds, you seem sure of it, how do you know that? Did he tell you? Did you read somewhere that it's "not possible"?


By that logic, I would believe that a magician is truly able to vanish a coin from existence, breaking all laws of physics, if I was unable to deduce a method.

Essentially, the effect he performed has the exact same plot as the invisible deck - instead of turning the card over before I named a card, he put it to one side. From a laymen's perspective, there would be little difference, although it does completely rule out sleight of hand even more.
If I was unaware of the invisible deck, seeing a performance of it would not make me believe in psychic reading. Anymore than a naked man vanishing a coin.

I've no idea how Pete did it. Perhaps it was chance with outs, but it sure was a gutsy way to do it. His performances throughout the day had similar miracles occur, so I have my doubts. Perhaps my card is commonly named, although it doesn't appear in any of the lists on the Café, for laymen or magicians.
I don't know. But it hasn't made me believe in the supernatural yet.

Do people in this forum agree with the spiritualists of previous centuries who used various methods to make the spirits of the dead come into a dark room? I really don't see the difference in claims. What about Peter Popoff, who knew information about people via God? Exactly the same effect as mind reading.

Max Maven's response was perfect. It left the questionable doubt in their mind without overtly stating the claim.
Slim King
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On Dec 2, 2014, Slim King wrote:
Isn't it obvious?
In the exact same manner that Doctors of Medicine use placebo's to help in treating patients, Psychics use Mentalism effects to help their clients/sitters. It's a pretty basic concept. Smile

I wanted to add, that about HALF of all Dr.s use placebo's...
http://www.nbcnews.com/id/27342269/ns/he......lacebos/
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ALEXANDRE
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David, you critisize my logic, then claim Maven's response was "perfect". I was asking you the same thing about Peter Turner just using different words. Let me say it in a different way: Your post above presumes that Peter Turner can't (really read your mind).

What's entertaining to read is how some of you guys love Max Maven's response, yet had I, or Slim or many others on here responded in the exact same way we'd be taken to task for trying to deceive our audiences in regards to psychic ability, we'd be called "frauds" and "charlatans" and we'd be attacked for suggesting that what we do is real ... yet when max Maven says it, it's awesome!


How does it look now?

INTERVIEWER: "A lot of people who have seen your show here in Fort Lauderdale come out thinking that what you do is real, that you can read minds, so how do you respond to that?"

ALEXANDRE: Your question presumes that I can't.
Slim King
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2014, ALEXANDRE wrote:
David, you critisize my logic, then claim Maven's response was "perfect". I was asking you the same thing about Peter Turner just using different words. Let me say it in a different way: Your post above presumes that Peter Turner can't (really read your mind).

What's entertaining to read is how some of you guys love Max Maven's response, yet had I, or Slim or many others on here responded in the exact same way we'd be taken to task for trying to deceive our audiences in regards to psychic ability, we'd be called "frauds" and "charlatans" and we'd be attacked for suggesting that what we do is real ... yet when max Maven says it, it's awesome!


How does it look now?

INTERVIEWER: "A lot of people who have seen your show here in Fort Lauderdale come out thinking that what you do is real, that you can read minds, so how do you respond to that?"

ALEXANDRE: Your question presumes that I can't.

Ain't it the truth ....
Virtually ALL of the old timers claimed abilities ... just the new ones now that want to sell the farm before the crop is in ... Smile Smile Smile Smile
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Dec 2, 2014, David Fillary wrote:

Do people in this forum agree with the spiritualists of previous centuries who used various methods to make the spirits of the dead come into a dark room? I really don't see the difference in claims. What about Peter Popoff, who knew information about people via God? Exactly the same effect as mind reading.



Don't be silly, David. When Peter Popoff had his wife feed information into his earpiece he was merely using a placebo on his parishioners. He was actually helping them by taking their money from them and not healing them. You know...like a doctor.
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