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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » What do you consider mentalism? (11 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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mastermindreader
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The OP is very clear that he has been a magician for the last two years and not a mentalist. He wouldn't be asking what mentalism is if he was actually performing it.

My longevity? What does that mean? I'm really not that old. (comparatively speaking Smile)
funsway
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Methinks, Bob, that you have overstated your position and made some un-warrented assumptions.

I agree that he would not be asking the question is he was clear on the fine distinctions of what Mentalism is (by your definitions), but not everyone agrees with your definition --
most lay persons would not and any newcomer to the Café may not. Many people use the term "magician" to cover anyone apparently doing the impossible. T<hey do not know that Mentalists are afraid of the term.

regardless ....

he did not say he was magician or that he was not a mentalist. He said, "I have been performing magic for over two years now." Big difference!

You and others may not like the term "magician" -- with good reason. But what you do as a Mentalist is "magic" whether you like it or not. You create an illusion of doing something impossible. That is what the word means.

To extrapolate his statement into your, "is very clear he has been a magician ... and not a mentalist" is fallacious and beneath the quality response one expects from you. It is certainly not accurate.

His question indicates a desire to gain clarity that might effect his future choices. Your prejudicial response might not support his growth as a Mentalist.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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mastermindreader
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Mentalists are afraid of the term "magicians?" Talk about ridiculous statements unsupported by facts. You've obviously never read anything about the great respect and love I have for the art of magic.

"Methinks" there is a comprehension problem here. The OP stated very clearly that he's been doing magic for two years and wants to know what mentalism is. If he doesn't know what mentalism is, it follows logically that he's not a mentalist.


A simple review of the OP's previous posts illustrates my point. On November 22nd he posted the following in "Magic on a Moments Notice":

Quote:
Color changing deck. I recommended this trick for a beginner a couple days ago. It is pretty easy and resets in about 2 seconds. Also A Word In A Million is a great trick. It drove me crazy until I learned how to do it. Those two will get you a reputation.


That also shows what type of card tricks he does along with a mental effect.

Simple, really.

And to call my response "prejudicial" is beneath you, Ken.
Robb
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Bob is dead right on this one. If you have to ask what a mentalist is, you are not a mentalist! End of argument.
Bill Cushman
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Wise man say, "If you do NOT ask 'what is a mentalist?' you are not a mentalist." Beginning of argument? Hope not.
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Dec 4, 2014, Bill Cushman wrote:
Wise man say, "If you do NOT ask 'what is a mentalist?' you are not a mentalist." Beginning of argument? Hope not.


No argument. But your wise man's statement is a lot deeper than its superficial meaning.
Rolyan
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Quote:
On Dec 4, 2014, Robb wrote:
Bob is dead right on this one. If you have to ask what a mentalist is, you are not a mentalist! End of argument.

Simplistic nonsense which is oft repeated and ill advised.

The original poster didn't ask what mentalism is. He said that he has a few tricks that he considers reading their minds and wondered if they were pure mentalism. It should be clear that you cannot answer the question without knowing what those tricks are. Even if you've read his previous posts (which most on here won't do) you still don't know what tricks he's referring to. I strongly suspect that they are not pure mentalism but would have preferred him to say what they are, then have experienced performers offer advice and comments that will help him develop.

Your comments will not help this person and assuming we respect beginners enough to help rather than simply dismiss them, your response says more about you than him.

Bob - I meant you've been in the business long enough to speak from experience.
Bill Cushman
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Agreed Bob, it could be parsed "rabinically" for generations to come. I admittedly heard the words with a Yiddish lilt, borne of paraphrasing echoes of memories of discussions among Talmudic scholars. Thank you for noticing!
funsway
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Quote:
On Dec 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

"The OP stated very clearly that he's been doing magic for two years and wants to know what mentalism is. If he doesn't know what mentalism is, it follows logically that he's not a mentalist.



Fine -- but that is not what you stated the first time above -- rather than quote him you rephrased what he said in biased terms.

I have no problem with what you think about magic -- only what you choose to say -- and it is your words that will effect new readers.

and no, inferring a positive conclusion from a negative claim is not "logical" -- it is an assumption based on a fallacy. The fact that your conclusion is probably correct does not mean the process was logical.

As noted above, I agree that his asking the question indicates he is not clear as to what persons on the Café consider to be Mentalism. Yet you repeat the explanation.

I agree with you and you argue with it. I support your views all the time. This time I believe your statement was incorrect, and you now indicate was based on posts not on this thread. ( you pre-judged his statements here)

I accept that you must correct his views on Mentalism to align with yours. Won't accurate quotes serve as well?

I want to respect ALL of what you write -- not just some of it. I was not "confused" -- just disappointed.
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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Slim King
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Quote:
On Dec 4, 2014, Robb wrote:
Bob is dead right on this one. If you have to ask what a mentalist is, you are not a mentalist! End of argument.

I'm a mentalist and I asked...
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Magic and Drums
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Isn't it also a question of presentation? I know lots of magicians and so-called mentalists who do what they consider "pure mentalism". But you can see - and feel - they are magicians. Some of them try to imitate Derren Brown ... not very well ... still they are considered as magicians by their spectators and participants. While you ask yourself after watching Derren: "Is this real? Is that possible?" The same thing in the hands of another performer gets totally different reactions: "How did you do that?"

Just my observations though...
mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Dec 4, 2014, funsway wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 4, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:

"The OP stated very clearly that he's been doing magic for two years and wants to know what mentalism is. If he doesn't know what mentalism is, it follows logically that he's not a mentalist.



Fine -- but that is not what you stated the first time above -- rather than quote him you rephrased what he said in biased terms.

I have no problem with what you think about magic -- only what you choose to say -- and it is your words that will effect new readers.

and no, inferring a positive conclusion from a negative claim is not "logical" -- it is an assumption based on a fallacy. The fact that your conclusion is probably correct does not mean the process was logical.

As noted above, I agree that his asking the question indicates he is not clear as to what persons on the Café consider to be Mentalism. Yet you repeat the explanation.

I agree with you and you argue with it. I support your views all the time. This time I believe your statement was incorrect, and you now indicate was based on posts not on this thread. ( you pre-judged his statements here)

I accept that you must correct his views on Mentalism to align with yours. Won't accurate quotes serve as well?

I want to respect ALL of what you write -- not just some of it. I was not "confused" -- just disappointed.


Whatever.

I accurately quoted what the OP said. I also directed him (in my very first post on this thread) to another thread in which I posted a detailed explanation of what I consider mentalism to be.

And I'll ignore the pompous snark in your statement, "I accept that you must correct his views on Mentalism to align with yours." I have done no such thing, as anyone who has actually bothered to read any of my books knows full well.
Martin Pulman
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On recent months on the Café, people have argued for the following to qualify as mentalism: tarot readers, palm readers, crystal ball readers, the psychic reader down the market, people doing the "real thing", table hoppers, strolling magicians doing mental magic, magicians doing mentalism effects, magicians telling their audience all mentalism is magic tricks etc etc.

We appear to be a rather broad church, which may be good or bad, depending on your point of view.
mastermindreader
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It's only a matter of time, Martin, before someone argues that the egg bag is mentalism if you have a prediction inside of the egg. Or that the Asrah Levitation is an effective demonstration of PK.
Funnybaldbloke
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Already been done Bob!

A show I worked on had a voice over that said, during the Asrah, that it was accomplished by the power of the mind.

The rest of the show was just as bad.
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IAIN
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Quote:
On Dec 5, 2014, mastermindreader wrote:
It's only a matter of time, Martin, before someone argues that the egg bag is mentalism if you have a prediction inside of the egg. Or that the Asrah Levitation is an effective demonstration of PK.


its a metaphor for creation, bob - as well you know! you crack the egg on the 13 steps and it bleeds...
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funsway
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Well Bob, I was actually planning on getting one of your books since my wife asked what I might want for Christmas.

Now, your choice of language in a disparaging way belays a solid "logical" position. Now, the world is separated into those who "bothered" to read one of your books and those who did not.

Guess what, Bob - the world does not revolve around you no matter how "expert" you are on a particular view of Mentalism, magic and the use of the English language.

but, since you brought it up, I would direct you to the number of times I have asked for a clarification of an effect or idea related to Mentalism that you have refused to answer. (chosen not to?)

You have already defined that I am not a Mentalist because I choose not to perform "for entertainment." Does that mean I am not deserving of an answer?

Does this mean that anyone else interested in such an answer is not a Mentalist?

This is the only forum in which people can discuss whether or not some effect or concept is Mentalism.

Your opinions are most valuable -- when you choose to answer. Bu they are still just opinions.

and I (or anyone) does not need your judgmental interpretation of statements to preface an opinion.

It seems you dislike anyone who dares question your opinions or offer an alternative. I am older than you -- at least show some respect.

My disappointment continues to grow.

Don't "bother" to answer. Anyone here can read your posts and assess their accuracy and judge your intent.

Merry Christmas. I've had enough "bah-humbug!"
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

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IAIN
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Bob isn't some kind of machine where you pop a coin into his slot and wait for a response y'know...

just cos he doesn't acknowledge every single post or question, doesn't mean you should take it personally...

as the older man, be a grown up about it...bob is entitled to his opinions, same as anyone else...

if you don't agree, fine...but at least don't spit the dummy over it...

sounds like you need to be recognised, funsway - for whatever reasons, maybe that recognition is rooted from elsewhere...
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funsway
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Yup, Iain -- it is rooted in a search for truth and honesty and concern of the apparent de-evolution of our culture.

I question, therefore I am not a Mentalist -- hummmm.

I confess to an opinion that those involved in magic can be leaders or prime-movers in something. Or is it hope?

Foolish me in believing that those who can tickle a person's imagination can also plant a seed of responsibility and candor.

by the way, I did download your File and will make a contribution to person in need. Way to go!
"the more one pretends at magic, the more awe and wonder will be found in real life." Arnold Furst

eBooks at https://www.lybrary.com/ken-muller-m-579928.html questions at ken@eversway.com
IAIN
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The devolution of how society acts is a far bigger and broader issue than can be addressed here...

We do not have a responsibility to do anymore than entertain, we can...but we don't have to, and its not anyone else's business to decide what an individual should do with their mentalism...

"lets drop the big one, see what happens..."
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