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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Why do you expose the F@@@e Tr@@@@@r In CnB? (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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DeadMoney
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Hi,

I see all performers exposing that disqualifying 3/4 of the Cups and Balls routine.

It seems it has the same intelligence behind it of a person doing ambitious card routine exposing DL in order to keep the audience attention and to misdirect in order to do a pass...

Am I missing something?

Exposing a move that really works and is used a lot even in other kind of magic I thought was bad really bad...

Sorry but I really think you will go to hell...where your punishment will be starting CnB and your audience just walk away saying "It is not in his hand...Does he think I'm stupid?" over and over again...
MagiCol
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Hi, DeadMoney,
Welcome to the Café.

I don't do C&B but I do know that when you know how a move is done -e.g palm a coin or a ball - then you start looking for it, and then
when you don't detect it yourself, that's all the more admiration the viewer develops for how well a magic move is made.

When you can't detect a move even though that's what happens and you're looking for it, WOW! You've been well and truly fooled.

If you know Gazzo's Street Cups DVD and watch it and notice how little proportion of time the actual bare routine would take, and also notice the patter that Gazzo uses and how much time he spends on that, then you can appreciate how much the 'extra talk/patter' enhances the enjoyment of folk watching Gazzo at work.

When Gazzo tells them about palming the ball, I bet some of the crowd who then watch do wonder if Gazzo was telling the truth anyway.
Magicians are liars in one way or other as part of their performing/acting.

People like to be fooled.
The presentation makes the magic.
DeadMoney
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Hi,

I prefer not to talk about specific performers...but if you want to talk about Gazzo ok...obviously he is great an probably the best...but if you see him perform I have even seen an audience member guess correctly the exact number of balls under the cup (3) after the Fal@@ T@@@@@@r and load (even if fake it put in the mind of the spectator the palming and loading sequence)explanation...

If you ask an audience member of Gazzo I'm pretty sure he will remember 2 things...he was funny and charming to dead and at he made orange and melon appear...yes generally people remember your character and the finale better but all the finale before the big loads is disqualified...

I don't believe the majority of people believe it's a fake explanation for the simple reasons that you are showing really well that you put the ball in the hand but big surprise it's not there...and here how it's done...and just for clarity you show it againg and again...because it's fun to expose magic..and than you expose the you go around with balls palmed to put under the cups...

I want to cry Smile
DeadMoney
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Ok...I'll try to think again better...maybe I'm missing something...but exposing a technique that works well and is so useful is difficult to digest...
DeadMoney
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Let's say your audience the same day or the next day see another performer...his sponge balls routine and his CnB routine get really weakened...
Harry Murphy
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Honestly I've never liked the sequence. I didn't like it when Vernon did it. Most if not all of the routines using that sequence are based on Vernon. I know why (and the logic) behind the move but honestly the sequence is not necessary to move to the next phase.

There are any number of magicians that do not use that sequence. I'm one of them. I never have. I learned the cups from sources that predated Vernon and were not influenced by Vernon's routine. My first routine was directly from the Classic Secrets of Magic (Bruce Elliott) and a little later Don Bowles (carnival magician) taught me a C&B routine that served me for decades. It was short, fast, to the point and magical. It exposed nothing.

I've seen several great magicians use the FT sequence to good effect. I've seen just as many not use the sequence.

Presently the blue-eyed boy of the C&B routines seems to be Gazzo's. It seems a lot of magicians are learning it because it works so well for Gazzo and is readily available. Honestly there are any number of really good routines that don't use the FT sequence.

Café' member Gerald Edmunson (user name Gerald) agrees and has a discussion on this (and other C&B flaws) in his book "The Ostrich Factor" (a must read for anyone wanting to polish their performance or take their magic to the next level). Gerald's book can be found at http://www.geraldedmundson.com/tof1/bookorder.htm
(I've no connection but think the book is a must read).
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gallagher
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Hey DeadMoney,
I agree with you here 100%.

I believe the reasoning is that most performer demeaner the craft of Magic for entertaining purposes only.
AND, while they cannot create wonder,..
(because they are bad Magicians)
they sell out the craft,..
for comedy,..
cheap laughs.

I really believe this.
Watching Magic Shows,..
I always notice the moments of "ahhs",
in comparision to the "ha-ha-ha's".
There are few "ahhing" Shows today.

A teacher of Juggling, from the Big Apple Circus, told me years ago,
"Comedy is the easiest form of entertainment,.. to do,.. and to be understood,..,by the masses."
(before we all start fighting; notice, he didn't say, "It was easy to do.")
I really believe this, as well.

I think it comes down to US, as Performers,..
what do we want?
The simplest road to 'being noticed' ?
Good Magic isn't easy.
I really KNOW this, as well.
What should we do about guys selling it out?
I don't think we should honour them,..
that's for sure!

smiles,
gallagher

p.s.: Going in a somewhat different direction, looking for the same sea;
Can Magic, performed well, still entertain today?
This is a serious question.
I hope so,..
but I'm lost in the moment.

p.s.s.: ,.. almost forgot,. Welcome to the Sidewalk!
Poof-Daddy
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Is it really exposure if you give it and then take it away with another method?
I love Penn and Tellers C&B routine but it is so much and so fast, the average laymen isn't going to remember a thing except that they were funny, entertaining and very good at their craft. I realize it is a bit different as a street performer, relying on C&B's as your closer (it seems a "throw-away" routine to P&T) but exposing a move and taking it back with another method shouldn't ruin the routine. Are you performing for the same person 30 times a day? (that is the guy who is gonna figure it out no matter what you do). Doing it for a set and those folks moving on to make way for the next set shouldn't be a major problem. Unfortunately, in our internet, Youtube age, anyone who really wants to remember or know how you did it, can find out. I still believe people enjoy being fooled as long as they are entertained in the process. Smile
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Gerald
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Quote:
Café' member Gerald Edmundson (user name Gerald) agrees and has a discussion on this (and other C&B flaws) in his book "The Ostrich Factor" (a must read for anyone wanting to polish their performance or take their magic to the next level). Gerald's book can be found at http://www.geraldedmundson.com/tof1/bookorder.htm
(I've no connection but think the book is a must read).


Thanks, Harry for mentioning The Ostrich Factor!

The Cups and Balls information is from my undistributed manuscript on the Cups and Balls. However, The Ostrich Factor would be an excellent guide to practicing and preparing to perform the Cups and Balls. But The Ostrich Factor book is more of a general practice guide which applies to all phases of the craft.

Thanks again, Harry! Glad you like The Ostrich Factor. Thanks for the recommendation!

Gerald
TheAmbitiousCard
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I don't use the FT and don't really like it either.
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ROBERT BLAKE
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And what about all those tricks with a fake explanation: egg bag - torn restored newspaper - color changing silks etc. I often do the old floating wand where you squeeze your wrist. I expose it and explain it doing it with a f=different method again. people know that we do tricks and by exposing this effect I show then that I don't take myself to serious. usualy magicians are to serious and that give a sense of arrogantcy, the look what I can do and you don't.

but in this example of the cnb you don't need to do so. keep in mind we ,magicians, are trained to methods and can spot them. audiences can take one method but not 4 or 6 that is to much. there will be always someone who guesses right.
DeadMoney
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I think a fake explanation is very different than a real one that is about a move so valuable.

About this:"Is it really exposure if you give it and then take it away with another method?" I think yes if you explain a really good move used effectively by other magician...If I explain PN and than I use some gimmicks ropes am I exposing?...of course yes...

People that expose a good move/trick to keep attention and build misdirection for the next move maybe do not hurt themselves a lot (in the short run) but hurt the next performer...and I think they know it but just don't care and are lazy to just think a day a second way to achieve the same goal without exposing for real.
Gerald
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Consider using Maskelyne's axioms in Our Magic. He advises us wisely:

“Always remember that avoidable defects are incapable of justification.”

"Always remember that a plea of justification is ordinarily an acknowledgement of error, and consequently demands every possible reparation."

I fully understand the many facets of the reverse psychology of the fake transfer explanation ploy. Because of Vernon's strong influence, I understand why many performers use it. But with all due respect to Vernon, and my respect is substantial, to reveal one of the craft’s most basic and greatest secrets, even as a “red herring”, to me, is a defect. Spectators might not pursue that path of thought unless we suggest it. To even suggest the secret or put that thought into the spectator's mind is not necessary.

The fake transfer explanation in Cups and Balls routines is easily avoidable. So in sixty years of performing the trick, over forty years as a full-time professional, I have never used it. Using Maskelyne's axioms and empirical knowledge as guides, I cannot justify its use.

Gerald
ROBERT BLAKE
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Quote:
On Dec 25, 2014, DeadMoney wrote:
People that expose a good move/trick to keep attention and build misdirection for the next move maybe do not hurt themselves a lot (in the short run) but hurt the next performer...and I think they know it but just don't care and are lazy to just think a day a second way to achieve the same goal without exposing for real.


what about all those people who explain every possible trick on youtube? is it because they ar not talented enough to do magic well and want thier fame by just explaining it?
Paddy
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The reason most people expose the false transfer is because they have watched Gazzo perform the c & b and he does that in his routine. So they learn one move, but they never know or even guess how the balls move between the cups or how the final loads appear. Smile
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EVILDAN
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I never understood it myself. I did it when I was learning Vernon's routine.
Cut it out as soon as I created my own routine. I didn't see a need for it and didn't see a reason for the exposure. It doesn't further my version at all.
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DeadMoney
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Quote:
On Dec 25, 2014, ROBERT BLAKE wrote:
Quote:
On Dec 25, 2014, DeadMoney wrote:
People that expose a good move/trick to keep attention and build misdirection for the next move maybe do not hurt themselves a lot (in the short run) but hurt the next performer...and I think they know it but just don't care and are lazy to just think a day a second way to achieve the same goal without exposing for real.


what about all those people who explain every possible trick on youtube? is it because they ar not talented enough to do magic well and want thier fame by just explaining it?


Yes...just my opinion...but I thought was a common one...
ringmaster
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With the correct timing it becomes a joke. Without the right timing you shouldn't be doing comedy.
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Mortimer Graves
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The explanation of the move is part of the Vernon routine. That's why people use it, because it worked for him. Gazzo, Cellini, yeah, they all do (or did) it, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be done that way.

Here's some reasoning behind why it's done: it throws people off who think they know how it all works, while setting them up for a bigger surprise. And it (sort of) fulfills the promise often made that you'll show them at the end how it's all done, which is part of why some people stick around and watch. Believe it or not, most people couldn't care less about seeing a guy do that "silly old cup trick", because (sorry, just being realistic here) everyone thinks they know how it works already. The idea of getting to see how it really works is a tease, it gives them the hope of confirming what they already suspect.

I used to do the routines that way, because that's how I was taught, but I've since learned that it can be dropped if you're good enough. I never use the same move twice in a routine, I use timing and misdirection, avoid all of the monotonous bits by using only two cups (because as beautiful as my three-cup routines are, only magicians want to watch them, usually), and I break with other patterns traditionally followed, as well. Not to reveal too much on a public forum, but nobody ever sees the big surprise coming at the end, even people who do the cups and balls.

I don't have to explain how a move works to get them to look where I want them to anymore, and I think that's a good thing. Really, it's all about engaging them properly. If they're bored enough with you to be burning your hands for their own amusement, you're doing it wrong from the get-go.

Even the most respected professionals I've talked to (argued with) about it seem to think it's all about the finale; it's not. Don't throw away the parts that took so long to learn, or you'll never get any better at them. It's not a track race, it's a beautiful dance.
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DeadMoney
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About this:"... it throws people off who think they know how it all works, while setting them up for a bigger surprise..." Are you saying that showing that you can do a great FT and Pa##### and Faking putting balls away you disqualify how they think it works?

About this:"And it (sort of) fulfills the promise often made that you'll show them at the end how it's all done, which is part of why some people stick around and watch"...I don't have seen that presentation...but even if that was the case why don't just use a fake explanation?...I have it seen somewhere...where the performer does bad FT...to explain...and than says:"Of course I don't do it that way, you would not belive that would you?"....
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