The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Why do you expose the F@@@e Tr@@@@@r In CnB? (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
Mortimer Graves
View Profile
Special user
New Orleans, Louisiana, U.S.A.
556 Posts

Profile of Mortimer Graves
Did you read more than two paragraphs? That's simply some of the common reasoning, provided to me by people who do it. I don't mince my words, I said it all pretty plainly, I thought.

I don't do the exposure bit. I'm pretty sure I said I think it's wrong to do it, too.

I believe that if you have to expose any of the moves just to direct attention strongly enough to get away with setting up for the finale, then you simply lack imagination. A compelling enough presentation has enough shadows in it to get away with pretty much anything, so why bother exposing a secret just because the "old boys" do it? Most often when I see someone else do the cups, it's like watching a sleepwalker trying to tie his shoes; the "presentation" is more like a commentary for the blind. It's sad.

So yeah, I think we basically agree, even if you simply choose on this occasion to roll poop into little balls about it. Please read my whole post before implying that I need to justify a standpoint that I've quite plainly not taken. Big pictures look a lot clearer when you're not squinting to make out all the little dots.

Cellini used to tell people he'd teach them the trick at the end so they could play casino in their own homes. As funny as the line is, I've never liked it, and I told him so. In fact, my then-current wife absolutely loathed his entire presentation, and this was a man I respected, and who was teaching me! I asked him why he would expose any of it, and he said nobody cared, so why did I. He told me he'd done it that way so long he didn't even think about it any more.

And that's the whole problem. Even Vernon himself said that magicians stop thinking too soon. And even he couldn't escape it, nor could those he inspired and taught, it seems. Oh well, nobody's perfect.

I use fake explanations, but they know my explanations are fake from the get-go, because only an insane person would use rubber cups and cut holes in his pockets to do the trick. We're having too much fun by then for anyone to be thinking too critically, anyway, but they know it's all part of the act.

I basically watched every magician I could, and decided to do it all differently than the common herd, hence my show is filled with playful make-believe, not attempts to prove that I'm a miracle man or an expert hustler or a cheat. I'm an entertainer. Whether my approach is valid for me is mirrored in the reactions of my audiences. They love what I do, and I love doing it for them, and that's ultimately all that counts. 20 years doing the same trick, paying my way through life with it, I think I'd better know by now what I'm doing, or I'm really screwed.

I'd say, in general, that if you want your cups and balls to really stand apart and knock people out, you should examine your own working routine and question it to death, then do something about it. Ask yourself all the questions you'd ask other magi, and don't be afraid to be different than all of them. What worked for Vernon won't necessarily work for someone else, and exposure sucks either way, so if you dislike the exposure ploy, just don't do it. Be the example you want to see everyone else set, and maybe they'll get with it someday.
'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

Hastur, Hastur, Hastur! See? Nothing hap-

...and if we rub each other the wrong way, let's try going in another direction. - Pokey the Porcupine
DeadMoney
View Profile
Regular user
115 Posts

Profile of DeadMoney
Hi Mortimer Graves,

I understood we have the same point of view...I was just trying reinforcing it again for people that read...just because, like you, I love the art of magic and I like it done the best way...

Of course I will always valuate my point of view....it could be wrong and I could be missing something ...that's the other reason why I keep the ball rolling... Smile
David Fillary
View Profile
Special user
657 Posts

Profile of David Fillary
I believe Vernon took his routine from Malini and too questioned the "exposure". He trialled with it and decided to keep it as it was, but I don't know his reasoning.
Mortimer Graves
View Profile
Special user
New Orleans, Louisiana, U.S.A.
556 Posts

Profile of Mortimer Graves
I could list a lot of reasons for the exposure bit (most of which amount to the same thing - the "sucker effect"), but it doesn't change the fact that it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I have even, in my foolish past, been chastised by audience members (who were not magicians) for breaking the rules and telling a secret.

About the third or fourth time a child from my audience told me in front of everyone that it was wrong to give away the secret, I learned my lesson.

If even the public thinks it looks bad, then I'd never be able to justify doing it. The public pays my rent, so I tend to listen to them. Ultimately, they've taught me more about how to be a successful performer than any magician ever has.

Nobody has to expose any secrets to do the cups effectively. Even if they're exposing something that's "old" or "lame" in their opinion, it's not the move's fault, it's theirs, if it's lame. Performed properly even the oldest sleights still blow people away, so why treat them like toilet paper?
'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

Hastur, Hastur, Hastur! See? Nothing hap-

...and if we rub each other the wrong way, let's try going in another direction. - Pokey the Porcupine
Gerald
View Profile
Veteran user
Texas
319 Posts

Profile of Gerald
Quote:
On Dec 28, 2014, Mortimer Graves wrote:. . .
Nobody has to expose any secrets to do the cups effectively. Even if they're exposing something that's "old" or "lame" in their opinion, it's not the move's fault, it's theirs, if it's lame. Performed properly even the oldest sleights still blow people away, so why treat them like toilet paper?


Agreed, absolutely.

Vernon had a good reason for the fake transfer explanation. It is an integral component of the misdirection for his final loads. But Maskelyne's point is; avoid a defect if at all possible. There are so many other avenues to pursue, the questionable false transfer explanation is not necessary and can easily be avoided.

Gerald
Gerald
View Profile
Veteran user
Texas
319 Posts

Profile of Gerald
Quote:
On Dec 28, 2014, David Fillary wrote:
I believe Vernon took his routine from Malini and too questioned the "exposure". He trialled with it and decided to keep it as it was, but I don't know his reasoning.

I heard Vernon discuss this subject a number of times in the early 1970s. He reasoned that the spectators would think the explanation was false, a sort of "red herring" because “A magician never reveals his secrets.” But many spectators do not carry their analytical thinking this far the reverse psychology tactic does not influence their thinking. He ended the topic by saying something like, "If you don't like it, leave it out. Everyone has a different way of working." From the discussion, it was apparent that he also had doubts about the wisdom of using the false transfer explanation.

Gerald
Mortimer Graves
View Profile
Special user
New Orleans, Louisiana, U.S.A.
556 Posts

Profile of Mortimer Graves
Thank you, Gerald. It's nice to hear this from someone who was closer to the source than most of us got to be.

And yeah, everyone has what works for them and what doesn't, that's true too. Vernon really knew his stuff, even if he was just as human as the rest of us. *nods*

My thinking on psychological ploys is to use them to hook the knowers without blowing it for the non-knowers. The ones who think they know and are busting me get the sucker effect, and the ones who just want to see the pretty magic see the pretty magic.

What's funny is that it doesn't have to be done with moves, you can use feelings and subtext within yourself to do it, as well as tiny false tells, because even laymen can sense such things if they're looking for tells and such. Sometimes you can throw off a knower by tensing the hand you want them to look at slightly, or even just thinking about that hand for a moment, as if it's "dirty".

It's a much deeper art than we usually think it is.
'Tis an ill wind that blows no minds.

Hastur, Hastur, Hastur! See? Nothing hap-

...and if we rub each other the wrong way, let's try going in another direction. - Pokey the Porcupine
James_Kelsey
View Profile
New user
72 Posts

Profile of James_Kelsey
The way Vernon exposed the false transfer was really a lie. We don't drop balls from the cup, the ball is already there. The audiemce can't reconstruct the trick with that knowledge even though they try to make it as though they now know everything. This truth allows them to calm down and not feel like we are constantly making them feel stupid. This allows them to relax and enjoy the final loads at the end instead of feeling like we just spent the lest ten minutes making them look like an idiot.
Harry Patter
View Profile
Loyal user
214 Posts

Profile of Harry Patter
I saw someone do this today and was very disappointed. It wasn't a funny moment, it simply didn't add anything.
You only need to look at Tom Stone and his Benson Burner to see how far a cup and ball can pushed.
Endless West
View Profile
Regular user
A town called Malice
184 Posts

Profile of Endless West
Because when you show them that they all go "ahhh, that's what I thought!" And then you make a f$@&@!#% orange appear under the cup.
It negates the whole explanation.
They're all thinking "oh he just fooled us by saying that's how it's done, and it's not, because now there's a !@#$%^! orange under the cup and he definitely didn't roll it under there from the back of the cup."
It's like reverse psychology.
Endless West
View Profile
Regular user
A town called Malice
184 Posts

Profile of Endless West
Just went back and read the posts above me and James_kelsey nailed it.
Mario Morris
View Profile
Inner circle
Mario Morris
2038 Posts

Profile of Mario Morris
Quote:
On Dec 25, 2014, ROBERT BLAKE wrote:
And what about all those tricks with a fake explanation: egg bag - torn restored newspaper - color changing silks etc. I often do the old floating wand where you squeeze your wrist. I expose it and explain it doing it with a f=different method again. people know that we do tricks and by exposing this effect I show then that I don't take myself to serious. usualy magicians are to serious and that give a sense of arrogantcy, the look what I can do and you don't.

but in this example of the cnb you don't need to do so. keep in mind we ,magicians, are trained to methods and can spot them. audiences can take one method but not 4 or 6 that is to much. there will be always someone who guesses right.


This can be very clever magic.
Mario Morris
View Profile
Inner circle
Mario Morris
2038 Posts

Profile of Mario Morris
Quote:
On Jan 14, 2015, James_Kelsey wrote:
The way Vernon exposed the false transfer was really a lie. We don't drop balls from the cup, the ball is already there. The audiemce can't reconstruct the trick with that knowledge even though they try to make it as though they now know everything. This truth allows them to calm down and not feel like we are constantly making them feel stupid. This allows them to relax and enjoy the final loads at the end instead of feeling like we just spent the lest ten minutes making them look like an idiot.


Actually the false transfer is a very clever effect that if done right fools and tricks your audience even further. I see my audience being totaly wowed and further fooled by it. It relies on both a move of being one step ahead and misdirecting your audience and patter, a story of this is how you do it. When in fact you don't tell them what your really doing. Now I would explain what this one step ahead move is as it seems to be fooling some of you or at the very least you could not have done it right in the pass. To explain it in a public fourm step by step would be wrong because you'd be exposing it. So to help stop calling it the exposure of the fa;se transfer and start calling it the false transefer conbined, or "false transfer and one step ahead move" Looking over the posts on this thread I think it is more a discussion about taste and styles. I love the false transfer and one step ahead move as I think it is very magical, it fools the audieance and it more than funny and its attention grabbing.
migwar
View Profile
Elite user
west yorkshire, UK
457 Posts

Profile of migwar
That phase of the Vernon routine justifies a lot of handling of the props to get you where you need to start the final loading. It's a great piece of (mis) direction as it's puts people's gaze exactly where you want it.


I think it's a solid part of the routine, personally I don't use it but only because I don't think it suits me.
James_Kelsey
View Profile
New user
72 Posts

Profile of James_Kelsey
Very well said Mario!
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » The side walk shuffle » » Why do you expose the F@@@e Tr@@@@@r In CnB? (7 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2019 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.16 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL