The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Looch - The Black Project (183 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..13~14~15~16~17..27~28~29 [Next]
Jack Straw
View Profile
Special user
Wichita
997 Posts

Profile of Jack Straw
Believe me, Robb, I gave it a lot of practice.

I was using US quarters. Were you?

That would be a VERY desirable thing for me to be able to do, so believe me, I tried.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
Jack Straw
View Profile
Special user
Wichita
997 Posts

Profile of Jack Straw
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2015, Garbo wrote:
Cheer up guys - could've bought Lloyd's "CHANGE"! Smile


I did!

But at least I got my money back.
Jack Straw from Wichita, cut his buddy down
And dug for him a shallow grave, and laid his body down
Half a mile from Tucson, by the morning light
One man gone and another to go, my old buddy you're moving much too slow
We can share the women, we can share the wine
Garbo
View Profile
Regular user
138 Posts

Profile of Garbo
Me too! Thought they'd mixed mine with a free gift from a packet of cereal! 😳

Anyway - this isn't about that product. Sorry all. Just trying to lighten the mood. Seems to be a lot of negativity - I was always brought up with the age old saying " if you e nothing nice to say......." Smile
Looch
View Profile
Inner circle
Off by
3436 Posts

Profile of Looch
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2015, Jack Straw wrote:
Believe me, Robb, I gave it a lot of practice.

I was using US quarters. Were you?

That would be a VERY desirable thing for me to be able to do, so believe me, I tried.


Jack, it states specifically in the free chapter that: "it would appear the majority of US coins are too thin, however some report that you can get good results with a Nickel."

Visiting the states in April, I too experimented with Nickels and they work well. My friend Patrick Redford also uses Nickels and lectured his take on the move in his recent second Penguin LIVE lecture.
My Mentalism Products: https://www.readmymind.co.uk/
Bookings: https://looch.co.uk/
Atlas
View Profile
Inner circle
3103
1277 Posts

Profile of Atlas
Quote:
On Jul 15, 2015, Robb wrote:
Quote:
On Jul 13, 2015, MagicAtlas wrote:
I guess my point was that limited editions aren't always printed to keep things away from people who are just curious, or as sales tactics, but there is an actual moment when a printer asks you how many copies you'll need and you have to make a guess at the figure as retooling and reprinting are also typically expensive enough to not be viable options. You want to get the order just right and that's difficult. If there is a perceived gap in supply and demand, it is because a creator will have erred on the side of caution when it comes to printing the run of books.


Those are all legit points, Atlas, and I appreciate your perspective. However, perhaps I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that most mentalists are not getting super rich in this business. I would guess that most full-time working pros are NETTING under $50,000 a year. That's not horrible but it's not great. Most don't have company pensions, savings plans, health insurance, paid vacations or any benefits (obviously). Of course there are a few superstars raking in hundreds of thousands or even millions (DB), but on average, we're more or less "starving artists".

While many have said that a "pro" would pay this much for a book because one gig would pay for it, well, I strongly disagree with that logic. First, a REAL working pro works *** hard for not a lot of money and isn't going to spend $400-500 on a book without strong conviction that it will produce a professional return for them.

Ironically, it's the hobbyists and part-timers who can drop a lot on books and tricks because performing is not their full-time job. I know SO many guys from my "magic club" days that were engineers or doctors or lawyers who would buy every trick and book that came out and got a boner when some "limited edition" expensive product hit the market... But they made big bucks with great benefits working their day jobs, so please everyone, drop this BS argument that "pros" will happily pay a lot of information.

Now, that said, I appreciate a well written book. I love great books on magic and mentalism and will pay a decent price for them. What I don't like these days is the HYPE. The slick videos, the micro-sites, the contests, etc. It's all too much. You can argue it anyway you want, but it's the commercialization of our art taken to a whole other level.

In the "old days", books, videos, lectures, etc. were sources of supplemental income for performers or creators. These days it's a business unto itself with a lot of the product being churned out by guys that have never worked a paying gig in their lives yet justifying the prices as material suitable "just for professionals"... Even though they're not pros themselves! But they are good marketers and have built upon a facade of success at least. Kind of ridiculous, really. (I realize this doesn't apply to Looch, just making a point...)

And think about this... What if everyone just SKIPPED the marketing hoopla, the "exciting" videos, etc., thereby cutting their costs. They could sell their product for less and still make the same money! I don't want to pay for Looch's "Black Project" website or some video production... I want to pay for the information. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I feel bad that Looch's book has become the center or this argument I'm making. I really do love his work and, by all appearances, he is a great guy. But that doesn't invalidate my point.

My final point... Atlas, have YOU ever paid $400 for a single mentalism book? Honestly? Or has Looch? If not, however did you guys succeed?! (If you have paid $400+ for a book, which one?)


Hi Robb,

What a great post! I fully agree with most of what you said there.

You stated that "First, a REAL working pro works *** hard for not a lot of money and isn't going to spend $400-500 on a book without strong conviction that it will produce a professional return for them." I fully agree with that assertion and the mindset behind it. You asked me the last book that I paid that much for? It was Andy Nyman's Bulletproof. As with Looch's Black Project, Bulletproof is a book that represents a decade of Andy's work and I was confident that it would help me "produce a professional return".

The only reason I was comfortable paying that much was because I knew the man worked a lot, he had a great reputation, and I was sure I'd learn something from him rather than having to reinvent the wheel. That's the kind of thing that I think a worker will be able to justify paying that much for.

So, as regards the argument that a professional will happily pay high prices for material - I think it depends on the reputation of the person selling it, but as a matter of course I think a performer looks at stuff like this and has to be able to justify his purchase based upon his expected return. Lots of projects flatly don't cut it. I think this one does.

As far as marketing goes, again, we are in complete agreement. There is so much hype out there.

The word "Hype" is, of course, short for hyperbole, which is defined as an "exaggeration". I'm not sure I'd use that word in association with the statements I've made about this book.

You can see that Looch has taken great care over the Black Project, putting a lot of thought into how it will look and feel, and the pictures and video released certainly look amazing. You can tell that he is pretty good at marketing his product - and as his larger stable of products includes himself and his performances, I doubt his ability to successfully market things is something that other professionals are going to hold against him. In fact, as effective marketing is so essential to a working magician's success, I'd expect it to be one of those things they hoped to learn more about from him.

But again, I agree with so much of what you said there. You said:

"In the "old days", books, videos, lectures, etc. were sources of supplemental income for performers or creators. These days it's a business unto itself with a lot of the product being churned out by guys that have never worked a paying gig in their lives yet justifying the prices as material suitable "just for professionals"... Even though they're not pros themselves! But they are good marketers and have built upon a facade of success at least. Kind of ridiculous, really. (I realize this doesn't apply to Looch, just making a point...)"

I couldn't agree with you more. It seems like people pop up here and sell and ebooks, and then they see that it made a little bit of money for them and so they write and sell another one and before you know it, they've released six or seven things in one year - and none of it is good, none of it works because these guys are spending so much time dreaming this stuff up that they don't have any time to perform and test it. It has become a market of its own, and one which I am highly leery of.

Anyway, just taking a moment to answer your post Robb. Again, great post and I agree with SO very much of what you said. If these guys who were so busy building their facade of success (and people know who they are) actually took their marketing abilities and used their skills to actually get gigs, then they'd get work and experience, and the stuff they'd produce would be tried and tested and really worked through - they'd be more like Looch and their thoughts might be worth combing through then.

Best,

Atlas
Mark_Chandaue
View Profile
Inner circle
Essex UK
3756 Posts

Profile of Mark_Chandaue
I disagree about pro's not being willing to pay for info, but I do think they tend to be very selective. I'm not sure how the tax system works on the other side of the pond but here this book would be a valid business expense and so is offset against your tax so that cuts the cost before you start. Yes there is a vast difference between what a mentalist can earn and this has more to do with marketing and selling ability than performing talent. The truth is that show business is 90% business and 10% show! many performers go professional with a great show but little knowledge of business. Getting the gigs, negotiating fees and even marketing yourself, and the ability to sell is what determines your earning potential rather than your performance chops. These are the sections of the Black Project that I'm looking forward to most because these will make more difference than any trick.

There is money to be made out there, trade shows pay very good money but they are hard hard graft and you need to market your ability to generate leads rather than your ability to perform. An average performer can make a 6 figure income if he is good at selling and willing to graft. Likewise the corporate market pays more than private parties although that can depend on who is throwing the party. What it comes down to though is that as a pro every penny you spend is an investment into the product that is you and this is when you start looking at value rather than price. Investing well can be what makes the difference between being a starving artist and one of the superstars. I'm not saying the Black Project will change anyone's life but the table of contents combined with Looch's track record are enough to allow people to be able to make an informed decision as to whether this is a good investment for them. For you maybe not and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. For me, like you, it's a lot, I get a decent salary in my day job and I'm a single dad, raising kids on my own so my finances are up and down but now my kids are getting older my long term aim is to get back to performing full time and for me every little snippet of good advice is priceless. Looch, Atlas, Ken Dyne and David Penn for that matter are people who's advice I put a very large amount of stock in.

As far as the marketing, if you cut out the marketing nobody would know about the book and nobody would buy it, as far as web sites etc, people need somewhere to go to place their order, selling it via pm's on here simply would not be viable. As far as competitions, they can be fun, generate interest and give people who otherwise might not be able to afford the book a chance to own it and in the case of this particular contest they earn it rather than simply having a name drawn out of a hat so assuming I'm not too late to buy my copy I'm certainly not going to begrudge the competition winner their copy, they worked for it.

Not knocking your opinion Robb, just offering my own perspective.

Mark
Mark Chandaue A.I.M.C.
Harpacrown is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk
Harpacrown Too is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk/?product=harpacrown-too
Ophiuchus is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk/?product=ophiuchus
Totally Free Will is available from
http://www.harpacrown.co.uk/?product=totally-free-will
BMWGuy
View Profile
Inner circle
Texas
2297 Posts

Profile of BMWGuy
Ordered last night.

Cant wait to get it to dive in.

Looch's lectures were amazing, and I have used items from them.

Thanks

Alex
PRESET by Alex Alejandro & Dan Harlan now available for a special introductory price!
Ashton
View Profile
New user
85 Posts

Profile of Ashton
I see this as an investment, an investment in myself, training for a new career.
Mysteryos
View Profile
New user
28 Posts

Profile of Mysteryos
So. Though it has been discussed about the high price, I want to add one argument about this. I really can understand why people tend to be attracted by all these promises and marketing strategies "Hard hitting effects made in X decades of professional working" "Only X books worldwide" "New principles never seen before"

... But isn't it funny or somehow ironic that a bunch of "mindreaders and thought manipulators" fall for all these sweet words and phrases, where as nearly all techniques are to be found in the basic books, which are often old, dog-eared and boring-looking...and cost only 15-60 Dollars (or in my country euros)?
Everybody, including me, loves exclusivity- I think that's one reason why many of us had started with this hobby/career, but having more money than another to buy a book with "mysteries inside nobody else knows" should never be the core or the goal of mentalism.
Isn't it about the persona or the entertainment of the spectators?

And isn't it much satisfying to buy the fundamentals (thank you very much, Bob Cassidy) and develop routines from the ground up and be proud of the flowers that bloom out of this "old soil"? Nearly every time I buy "the best mentalism book of all time" I am disappointed cause all the mechanics lay in the pages of the dusty books on my shelf and are just waiting to be discovered once again.

Just the 2 cents from a german hobbyist, who loves this art.
GaMBiT_101
View Profile
Regular user
Adelaide
145 Posts

Profile of GaMBiT_101
When does the preorder offer end?
"Being able to do tricks, doesn't mean you're able to be Entertaining!"
brehaut
View Profile
Inner circle
kentucky
2529 Posts

Profile of brehaut
Quote:
On Jul 19, 2015, Mysteryos wrote:
So. Though it has been discussed about the high price, I want to add one argument about this. I really can understand why people tend to be attracted by all these promises and marketing strategies "Hard hitting effects made in X decades of professional working" "Only X books worldwide" "New principles never seen before"

... But isn't it funny or somehow ironic that a bunch of "mindreaders and thought manipulators" fall for all these sweet words and phrases, where as nearly all techniques are to be found in the basic books, which are often old, dog-eared and boring-looking...and cost only 15-60 Dollars (or in my country euros)?
Everybody, including me, loves exclusivity- I think that's one reason why many of us had started with this hobby/career, but having more money than another to buy a book with "mysteries inside nobody else knows" should never be the core or the goal of mentalism.
Isn't it about the persona or the entertainment of the spectators?

And isn't it much satisfying to buy the fundamentals (thank you very much, Bob Cassidy) and develop routines from the ground up and be proud of the flowers that bloom out of this "old soil"? Nearly every time I buy "the best mentalism book of all time" I am disappointed cause all the mechanics lay in the pages of the dusty books on my shelf and are just waiting to be discovered once again.

Just the 2 cents from a german hobbyist, who loves this art.


Let me respond to your "2 cents" with my two cents. You state that isn't it funny that a bunch of mindreaders fall for these sweet words? Well first, since this is in the thread about Looch's new book, you assume by purchasing the book we are falling for something. Perhaps, the purchase is made from more than just those "sweet words". Many of us have had past purchases from Looch where we were pleased with the product and trust was built. We have also seen Looch perform and trust his advice based upon seeing him. Finally, you seem to suggest that as "mindreaders" we should be the last person to "fall" for something. Hmmmmm. no comment.


You also say everyone including yourself loves exclusivity but that having more money than someone else should never be the goal of mentalism. Well, I appreciate that you want exclusivity but apparently don't want money to be a factor. Do you want Looch to pick or choose who to sell his book to based upon some other criteria? I really don't understand this preoccupation about what someone else charges for their product? Do you want Looch's book and you are mad you can't buy it? Do you want to try and persuade other people not to buy it (that would seem malicious to me)? Do you think it is a bad deal and if so how can you say that without anyone having seen it yet?

We are fortunate in Mentalism that a two volume book containing a plethora of secrets of a working professional can be had for $400 plus. A good set of golf clubs will cost you twice that amount and will be outdated in several years. A coin that is not even very rare (thousand and thousands exists) are bought by collectors for five figures. If you actually use the material in one of these books they pay for themselves in the first performance. And even better, if you don't want it, then don't buy it! The bottom line is that Looch will only make money if people buy it. It looks like there are enough people who do see the value in his work to pay this price.

You say that everytime you buy a book it goes back to the fundamentals. Well I know that in mentalism there are really just a handful of methods and revelations. So yes, in some sense you are right. But certain performers add value to the fundamentals. Some people see the added value, others don't.

Everyone has their right to their opinion. I simply do not understand this obsession regarding arguing about the price of a book that you are not purchasing and haven't read. My two cents.

PS---going to McDonalds now and ask for the manager to reduce the price for the Big Mac---I honestly think it isn't that good and they are making too much money off it.
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18817 Posts

Profile of IAIN
$400 = one gig, yes?...
I've asked to be banned
Stefmagic
View Profile
Special user
523 Posts

Profile of Stefmagic
Quote:
On Jul 18, 2015, Ashton wrote:
I see this as an investment, an investment in myself, training for a new career.

You can make your investment in many others performers, better and way more experience than Looch! Why do you think this new book will make you better ? Why not Cassidy, Osterlind, Maven,etc. ?

If you want to make an investment, take an acting class and a public speaking course! That's an investment in yourself, not a book!
Medifro
View Profile
Inner circle
Miami
1245 Posts

Profile of Medifro
The very idea that mentalists are starting to rationalize high priced books is disturbing. Yes value is subjective and yes the material could merit the price, but that's not the issue that really worries me. Its the trend that does.

Magic books ( including mentalism ones ) used to cost 30-70$ depending on printing quality and content. Lorayne's books were particularly pricy at 99$ occasionally. The trend of expensive books has started only recently and was mostly done by performers with a psychic persona.

Train Tracking and other material surely deserve a price but what I'm really worried about is the direction of where the market is heading.
Stefmagic
View Profile
Special user
523 Posts

Profile of Stefmagic
Atlas : will you pay 400$ for Black project or will you get it for free from you friend Looch ?
Medifro
View Profile
Inner circle
Miami
1245 Posts

Profile of Medifro
- Also interested when the promo will be up, just liked GaMBiT_101 asked

EDIT: Is it finished, 18-20th July? Too bad.


Thanks
Stefmagic
View Profile
Special user
523 Posts

Profile of Stefmagic
Quote:
On Jul 19, 2015, Medifro wrote:
The very idea that mentalists are starting to rationalize high priced books is disturbing. Yes value is subjective and yes the material could merit the price, but that's not the issue that really worries me. Its the trend that does.
,
Magic books ( including mentalism ones ) used to cost 30-70$ depending on printing quality and content. Lorayne's books were particularly pricy at 99$ occasionally. The trend of expensive books has started only recently and was mostly done by performers with a psychic persona.

Train Tracking and other material surely deserve a price but what I'm really worried about is the direction of where the market is heading.

I agreed. It hit through the ceiling with Taboo treatise from Jerome Finley at 1000$ and friends of Jerome all praised that it's worth every penny...did you read recent post about how great this book is or did you read someone upgrading his material in any way ?

Jerome did it before TT with 100$-400$ book (T&R, Guerilla QA)

Jerome has his followers...and he knows they'll buy anything at any price!
Atlas
View Profile
Inner circle
3103
1277 Posts

Profile of Atlas
Quote:
On Jul 19, 2015, Stefmagic wrote:
Atlas : will you pay 400$ for Black project or will you get it for free from you friend Looch ?


Interestingly, the fact that I edited half the book for him, meant that I had READ half the book and expected that the other half would have been to the same standard, and so I offered to buy my copy. I have no qualms about paying for material that I use - just ask Laurence Hookway. He sent me a copy of his excellent PIN routine and I use it and love it and so paid him for it.

Looch insisted that I receive my copy free of charge because of all the time I spent in editing the book, which was a very kind thing to do. But to answer your question, I did indeed approach him cash in hand with zero sense of entitlement or any expectations of anything but a straight forward purchase.

Best,

Atlas
sbays
View Profile
Inner circle
Burbank, CA
1048 Posts

Profile of sbays
Quote:
On Jul 19, 2015, Medifro wrote:
The very idea that mentalists are starting to rationalize high priced books is disturbing. Yes value is subjective and yes the material could merit the price, but that's not the issue that really worries me. Its the trend that does.

Magic books ( including mentalism ones ) used to cost 30-70$ depending on printing quality and content. Lorayne's books were particularly pricy at 99$ occasionally. The trend of expensive books has started only recently and was mostly done by performers with a psychic persona.

Train Tracking and other material surely deserve a price but what I'm really worried about is the direction of where the market is heading.


The market is heading that way because people have figured out that some people will pay these insanely high prices. It is a trend, and it will continue as long as people will pay it.

The interesting thing is, in many cases they end up sitting on a large inventory because they can't move them. They get the initial impule buyers, then it dies off. that's when the underground sales begin of selling the books for less than half what the original price was. I have experiened that several times.

The argument always comes up about them being able to charge whatever they want. Yes indeed they can. But would it be ok with you if gasoline went up to 30.00 dollars a gallon? If a movie ticket went up to 60 dollars? Would you complain about this, or just say, "They have a right to charge whatever they like"?

I would never spend 500 dollars for a book period. It doesn't matter who wrote it or what it contains. It's even more silly of an idea when you are spending that on pure specuation. No book is all of a sudden going to make you a great performer. People keep jumping on the newest, best, eclusive thing because I think they have that idea.

Charging 500 dollars for a book is outlandish, and I do not support this trend. If you do, then more power to you.
"Opportunity may only knock once, but temptation leans on the doorbell."
DynaMix
View Profile
Inner circle
1148 Posts

Profile of DynaMix
Earlier in the thread there was a line of thought around "if you're a pro then this shouldn't be a problem".

However true that might be, I found it a turn off. I know in my case once I stopped wavering and committed to NOT purchasing this, I did feel whatever the opposite of "buyers remorse" is. I saved aggressively to purchase this and found myself with a few extra bucks! Picked up a few other items and spent some on the girlfriend Smile

Best of luck to all of the other purchasers and I look forward to reading reviews if there are any.
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Looch - The Black Project (183 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3..13~14~15~16~17..27~28~29 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2021 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.26 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL