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Dannydoyle
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Well to be fair many who own guns here have been posting things that are silly and unrealistic.

Owning a gun and shooting at a paper targets has as much to do with a hot situation such as this as a hot dog and a warm puppy. If you have never been shot at (Much less with a Kalashnikov.) you can not imagine what is happening. The sound ALONE is enough to freeze the most trained in their tracks. It is impossibly loud. This is not like the movies where everything is basically at one level of sound. You are absolutely encased in sound when it happens. It is sort of like a flash bang grenade. It is very disorienting and it takes away one of your senses almost immediately. At the gun range you have some really nice noise suppressing ear protection. Not in life.

Then imagine you are sitting minding your own business and suddenly this just jumps off! BAM no warning or anything just starts. You think that any of the paper targets you manage to shoot the center of are going to replicate that? Then the idea of drawing a weapon down on another human being and placing the sight there with the intention of killing them is another subject.

So lets not pretend just that the mere presence of weapons will somehow change things. There is NO guarantee it would. Matter of fact it can create more chaos if they do manage to clear leather and start a crossfire. There is NO WAY TO KNOW.

Plus again it is France. They have their own laws which we need to respect.

Again I am not taking a position on anything. Just trying to add a bit of much needed reality to each side.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Jan 15, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Well to be fair many who own guns here have been posting things that are silly and unrealistic.

Owning a gun and shooting at a paper targets has as much to do with a hot situation such as this as a hot dog and a warm puppy. If you have never been shot at (Much less with a Kalashnikov.) you can not imagine what is happening. The sound ALONE is enough to freeze the most trained in their tracks. It is impossibly loud. This is not like the movies where everything is basically at one level of sound. You are absolutely encased in sound when it happens. It is sort of like a flash bang grenade. It is very disorienting and it takes away one of your senses almost immediately. At the gun range you have some really nice noise suppressing ear protection. Not in life.

Then imagine you are sitting minding your own business and suddenly this just jumps off! BAM no warning or anything just starts. You think that any of the paper targets you manage to shoot the center of are going to replicate that? Then the idea of drawing a weapon down on another human being and placing the sight there with the intention of killing them is another subject.

So lets not pretend just that the mere presence of weapons will somehow change things. There is NO guarantee it would. Matter of fact it can create more chaos if they do manage to clear leather and start a crossfire. There is NO WAY TO KNOW.

Plus again it is France. They have their own laws which we need to respect.

Again I am not taking a position on anything. Just trying to add a bit of much needed reality to each side.


Funny how often when duck hunting, you can have your shotgun ready, be expecting ducks and still be too startled to get a good shot.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
Dannydoyle
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True and all they do is fly out of cover. They are not shooting back!
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
mastermindreader
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I would remind Slim if the murder of five armed police officers here in Washington a few years ago. They were sitting in a Café having lunch when a gunman just walked up the their table and started firing. All of them died. All of them were armed.
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Any coward can hide in ambush to kill a civilian or walk up behind the toughest alarmed policeman and kill him before he can draw his weapon. I think "all of them died. All of them were armed." is a specious argument.
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Ian McColl
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On Jan 15, 2015, RNK wrote:

Exactly! And those who have never owned a gun and know nothing about them will keep on posting silly/unrealistic comments.


now who's got there fact WRONG !!!!!!!!! I'm laughing now.
mastermindreader
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On Jan 15, 2015, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
Any coward can hide in ambush to kill a civilian or walk up behind the toughest alarmed policeman and kill him before he can draw his weapon. I think "all of them died. All of them were armed." is a specious argument.


Specious? Hardly. The specious comments are those that state arming everyone would have prevented this tragedy. That is simply false. Did you even bother to read the link posted above about the "recreation" of the attack sponsored by Texas gun enthusiasts? Watch that first, then tell me whose argument is specious.

BTW- The Washington killer didn't lie in wait or sneak up on the police. He simply walked up to their table and shot all of them. Pretty much like what happened in Paris.
RNK
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Quote:
On Jan 15, 2015, Ian McColl wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 15, 2015, RNK wrote:

Exactly! And those who have never owned a gun and know nothing about them will keep on posting silly/unrealistic comments.


now who's got there fact WRONG !!!!!!!!! I'm laughing now.


Well, I am glad you are laughing and not cussing. Life is to short and laughing is one of the best medicines.

I still stand behind my previous comments. Those that do not own a gun and never have been around them obviously will have a different view and understanding. This applies not just to guns but a lot of things.

And to those who think that being armed does not increase your chance of survival- well that's just silly.
Dannydoyle
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I never said it didn't increase the odds (Chances is a suckers term. ) I only said it did not make it a sure thing or increase then nearly as much as many think.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
RNK
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From some reports I read Danny clearly state that increases in gun permits over the years has resulted in lower murder rates, etc.. And in the US, the six states that do not require a permit to conceal have the lowest rates of murder, violent offenses, etc...
Dannydoyle
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That is great. It HAD NOTHING TO DO with guys attacking with military hardware in this situation. You are moving the goal posts. Apples and oranges.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Mr. Mystoffelees
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Quote:
On Jan 15, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 15, 2015, Mr. Mystoffelees wrote:
Any coward can hide in ambush to kill a civilian or walk up behind the toughest alarmed policeman and kill him before he can draw his weapon. I think "all of them died. All of them were armed." is a specious argument.


Specious? Hardly. The specious comments are those that state arming everyone would have prevented this tragedy. That is simply false. Did you even bother to read the link posted above about the "recreation" of the attack sponsored by Texas gun enthusiasts? Watch that first, then tell me whose argument is specious.

BTW- The Washington killer didn't lie in wait or sneak up on the police. He simply walked up to their table and shot all of them. Pretty much like what happened in Paris.


Respectfully disagree.

1. Perhaps I misread your meaning, but what I inferred from your comments is the theory that society may as well disarm every policeman and soldier since they can sometimes be taken by surprise, in which case their guns are useless. I find that logic flawed.
2. No I did not read the link, and why should I? It was not referenced in your comment, was about a "re-creation"? Really? And you want me to read this to challenge my opinion? You'll do just fine.
3. My comment was quite specific as to what I found specious: ""all of them died. All of them were armed." Where is that intended to lead one? What was the intended connection? Could one infer that, had they not been armed, they would not have died?
4. I said "I think" because it is only an opinion.
5. "BTW- The Washington killer didn't lie in wait or sneak up on the police. He simply walked up to their table and shot all of them." To me, what happened here was essentially the same as "walk up behind". Forgive me for not being more specific. Had the perp made the gun noticeable sooner the ending could have been much different, but not so if all were unarmed.

Thanks for the reply!

Jim
Also known, when doing rope magic, as "Cordini"
Dannydoyle
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Bob NEVER even implied to disarm anyone much less every police and soldier. He simply said that the mere act of possessing a firearm at the time of any given incident does not alone make things better.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Salguod Nairb
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Flip the scenario around. The police go to raid a drug dealer's house. The criminals all have guns and have defensive measures in place. If the criminals knew the police were arriving the story would play out differently, but they are usually caught with their guard down. They don't want to be arrested or robbed by a rival gang, but if you don't have a proper situational awareness in place you will re-act instead of act.
We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness...
RNK
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Quote:
On Jan 16, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Bob NEVER even implied to disarm anyone much less every police and soldier. He simply said that the mere act of possessing a firearm at the time of any given incident does not alone make things better.


Definitely increases your chances for a better/safer outcome for the good guy that is carrying the gun and for everyone else that is around him.
Dannydoyle
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It increases the ODDS.

But how significantly is the question isn't it? It does not make it a certainty. Not by a long shot.

Again until you have been in a hot situation don't just presume.

People with a CCP do not train for hot situations like cops and soldiers. They shoot targets. Targets are paper and most that I know of do not shoot back. Plus tell me how long the situation in France actually took to unfold. By the time your situational awareness caught up with you odds are pretty good it might very well be over. Don't forget the bad guys are not stopping while you catch up.

You can't shoot without making yourself target number ONE.

Again much of this is odd to me. Just thinking that a target not shooting back is the same as being shot at with automatic weapons is laughable.
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Pecan_Creek
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Quote:
On Jan 16, 2015, RNK wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 16, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Bob NEVER even implied to disarm anyone much less every police and soldier. He simply said that the mere act of possessing a firearm at the time of any given incident does not alone make things better.


Definitely increases your chances for a better/safer outcome for the good guy that is carrying the gun and for everyone else that is around him.


No, it does not. That is the myth that has been disproven by the incidents being discussed here.

It did not increase the poloice officers chances, it would have not increased the Charlie Ebdo's employees chances.
LobowolfXXX
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Quote:
On Jan 16, 2015, Pecan_Creek wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 16, 2015, RNK wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 16, 2015, Dannydoyle wrote:
Bob NEVER even implied to disarm anyone much less every police and soldier. He simply said that the mere act of possessing a firearm at the time of any given incident does not alone make things better.


Definitely increases your chances for a better/safer outcome for the good guy that is carrying the gun and for everyone else that is around him.


No, it does not. That is the myth that has been disproven by the incidents being discussed here.

It did not increase the poloice officers chances, it would have not increased the Charlie Ebdo's employees chances.


What do you base this claim on?
"Torture doesn't work" lol
Guess they forgot to tell Bill Buckley.

"...as we reason and love, we are able to hope. And hope enables us to resist those things that would enslave us."
Dannydoyle
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I was curious as to what ALL claims were based on?
Danny Doyle
<BR>Semper Occultus
<BR>In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act....George Orwell
Pecan_Creek
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Your mom told me.




Why aren't you a clever boy . If I searched the forums how many times do you think you've posted that same phrase?
Asking worn out meaningless questions does not one clever make.

Take your fake attorney bs somewhere else.

asked and answered

I won't play.

Watch, now he's going to accuse my posts being frivolous and meaningless because I won't play his game.
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