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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Help with finding a convincing book test (14 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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Scott Soloff
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A final thought for the OP (who seems to have disappeared).

If you are magician doing a book test, then the explanation is that it has to be a trick.

When a mentalist performs a book test, well then, it's only a book.

Best to all,


Scott
p.s. Actually, in many instances, it really is merely a book.
'Curiouser and curiouser."
mastermindreader
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Exactly. Couldn't have put it more succinctly myself.
Russell Davidson
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Quote:
On Jan 13, 2015, Scott Soloff wrote:
A final thought for the OP (who seems to have disappeared).

If you are magician doing a book test, then the explanation is that it has to be a trick.

When a mentalist performs a book test, well then, it's only a book.

Best to all,


Scott
p.s. Actually, in many instances, it really is merely a book.


And yet famous magicians perform book tests or effects regarded as mentalism and don't seem to suffer reaction wise. By all means carry on thinking magicians don't do mentalism justice but IMO that is in your mind only and not that of an audience. Or perhaps the likes of Berglas, Daniels, Blaine have got it all wrong and should stick to just magic tricks?
IAIN
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The key word there is 'famous'...
IAIN
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And that they have such established personas, it will come across differently from person to person...
mastermindreader
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I will, however, continue to recognize that some famous magicians get good reaction to book tests DESPITE THE FACT that audiences perceive them as magic tricks.

The fact remains that competent mentalists get a DIFFERENT reaction because the effect is perceived differently.

(And, for the umpteenth time, my opinion does not make any value judgment between mentalism and magic. They are both fine forms of entertainmet. They are just perceived differently by audiences.)

Or perhaps the likes of Tarbell, Charles Reynolds, myself and many others, have got it all wrong and should have stuck to sponge balls.

Or maybe magicians could simply stop trying to tell mentalists how their art works.

Of course.
Scott Soloff
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Quote:
On Jan 14, 2015, Russell Davidson wrote:
Or perhaps the likes of Berglas, Daniels, Blaine have got it all wrong and should stick to just magic tricks?


You're kinda missing the point. And the point is (Mr. Cassidy put it very well) "my opinion does not make any value judgment between mentalism and magic. They are both fine forms of entertainmet. They are just perceived differently by audiences."

No need to get your panties in a twist. If you had read through the entire post (perhaps you did), my point was not to spoon feed someone that a) has very little participation here, and b) and no interest in mentalism (merely adding to his magic 'set').

His lack of understanding made it clear that he misunderstands 'book tests' from a mentalists point of view. The OP states that "The only thing I'm certain of is I would like one in which there is no obvious f*rce, I'd like something as close to a free choice as possible. The thing that I liked so much about the book test I recently learned is it can really be a free choice, any page, any word."

And, my point is that is exactly what a book test is... the 'apparent' free choice of word and page. DOH!

Hence, my objection to sharing an approach which literally defines mentalism. I have no problem with his performing a book test. Only that he should go the magic store and purchase one that involves a gimmick.

Does that clear it up for you?

Best wishes,


Scott
p.s. Haven't had coffee yet. Perhaps that explains my being so snippy.
'Curiouser and curiouser."
Casper TFG
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Meaning is contextual. A book test within the framework of a magic show will be perceived differently from a book test within the framework of a mentalism show. As Bob said, each will be perceived differently because meaning is contextual. Plus, I would tend to think that different kinds of audiences would have to be taken into consideration as well as far as perception goes. Speaking only for myself, even when it comes to strictly presenting mental effects, there are some things I will do for certain audiences but will not do for other types of audiences. I'm like a chameleon. My "colors" will change based on the atmosphere of the audience.
IAIN
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I tend to think that magicians think in visuals and mechanics, and mentalists think in concepts and presentations...
mastermindreader
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Again, it's all about perception- the audience's as well as the performer's.

Magic and mentalism, well performed, both create an entirely different illusion. On is perceived as trickery, the other as possibly being real.
Prometheus
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Quote:
On Jan 14, 2015, Casper TFG wrote:
Meaning is contextual. A book test within the framework of a magic show will be perceived differently from a book test within the framework of a mentalism show. As Bob said, each will be perceived differently because meaning is contextual. Plus, I would tend to think that different kinds of audiences would have to be taken into consideration as well as far as perception goes. Speaking only for myself, even when it comes to strictly presenting mental effects, there are some things I will do for certain audiences but will not do for other types of audiences. I'm like a chameleon. My "colors" will change based on the atmosphere of the audience.


Yes, you need to adapt to your spectators to suit them. Otherwise you can not entertain them. Good point.
-

Prometheus
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I've held off for posting on this thread for lack of any desire to debate the schematics of what is, what is not magic or mentalism, or who should, who should not seek to understand or practice any aspects of the two. Nor do I see myself at any point adding any heat to a debate as I simply don't have time or energy to concern myself with the opinions of people in which they are perfectly entitled to.

Sure, I haven't contributed an awful lot to the community. Where I've had useful bits to contribute, I have and will continue to do so. It is not my aim however to post uselessly and take up space on the forums just to gain a number of postings or to watch myself type.

I appreciate the helpful responses and if anyone doesn't wish to meet me on an equal footing that is fine too. Your entitled to your feelings. Just remember you cant exactly expect someone as new to this as I am to meet you on your plane of thought without some guidance. Guidance I welcome if you can step outside of yourself long enough to formulate it in a helpful fashion.

SImply put I am here to learn and grow. Whether I wake up one day with an interest in guessing your zodiac sign or sawing you in half that shall be the waters I dabble in at that time. Up until at some point I find a place in the mysterious I feel like I am comfortable standing on.
Scott Soloff
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Jescilito,

First, welcome to the forum. My experience here that there is a great deal to learn here and some very experienced performers more than willing to help.

My only objection is that your original post indicated a lack of understanding about book tests in general and more specifically, what you were searching for (once again, the art of mentalism is the appearance of free choice, among other things).

A couple of pertinent points: A basic tenant of mentalism is that the presentation is the method. If someone tipped to what you were doing, in all likelihood, it was what you did (or didn't do) that revealed the method. Not the method itself.

Another fine point: Magicians, by their very definition, are presenting some type of puzzle. People realize that they are 'tricks', as evidenced by the phrase, "How did you do that?" Mentalism, on the hand, as a form of entertainment, blurs the line between the possible and impossible.

Enough harping on the finer points. Many fine mentalists have come up through the ranks by participating in this forum. With that in mind, if there is any way that I may be of genuine help, kindly let me know.

Best wishes,


Scott
'Curiouser and curiouser."
mastermindreader
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Jescilito-

Welcome to Penny. I'd respectfully suggest that a basic understanding of the fundamental differences between magic and mentalism is essential to an understanding of why your book tests seem so transparent.

You might find this free resource to be helpful in your journey:

http://www.lybrary.com/thirtynine-steps-mentalism-a-10.html

Good thoughts,

Bob
sjdavison
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Well an interesting thread that's for sure!

Just to add another point, as mentioned the hoy book test is the very ethos of mentalism, inherently simple, intrinsically bold. Poorly presented this would be (potentially) fairly transparent, well presented, as part of a carefully crafted and scripted mentalism set, with subtleties added in and further logical disconnects, makes this one of the strongest mentalism pieces you can do. I use this. Regularly. However, I can almost guarantee that any magician looking to add a mentalism trick to their set, will disregard this as either not working or being too bold. I therefore do not worry too much about this being used other than by established mentalists.

I am not going to be drawn into a magic/mentalism debate , but to the original poster I have to ask, why specifically a book test? As part of a magic act, where presumably props are used, to pull out a book smacks of that also being a magic prop. There should be a reason for doing this , and generally speaking book tests form part of a larger mentalism set, and are used as a variation of thought reading, a way to randomly pick a word etc

If you do insist on a book test, I would suggest learning a method of doing it with a borrowed book. This would at least remove some of the thoughts of gaffes books. There are also plenty of methods in the classics of literature, there is no need to buy an expensive gaffed book.

Simon
Simon, 32, UK



www.sidavisonmagic.com
Russell Davidson
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Quote:
On Jan 14, 2015, Scott Soloff wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 14, 2015, Russell Davidson wrote:
Or perhaps the likes of Berglas, Daniels, Blaine have got it all wrong and should stick to just magic tricks?


You're kinda missing the point. And the point is (Mr. Cassidy put it very well) "my opinion does not make any value judgment between mentalism and magic. They are both fine forms of entertainmet. They are just perceived differently by audiences."

No need to get your panties in a twist. If you had read through the entire post (perhaps you did), my point was not to spoon feed someone that a) has very little participation here, and b) and no interest in mentalism (merely adding to his magic 'set').

His lack of understanding made it clear that he misunderstands 'book tests' from a mentalists point of view. The OP states that "The only thing I'm certain of is I would like one in which there is no obvious f*rce, I'd like something as close to a free choice as possible. The thing that I liked so much about the book test I recently learned is it can really be a free choice, any page, any word."

And, my point is that is exactly what a book test is... the 'apparent' free choice of word and page. DOH!

Hence, my objection to sharing an approach which literally defines mentalism. I have no problem with his performing a book test. Only that he should go the magic store and purchase one that involves a gimmick.

Does that clear it up for you?

Best wishes,


Scott
p.s. Haven't had coffee yet. Perhaps that explains my being so snippy.



Elitist BS.
Sean Giles
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Some magicians, like blaine, can successfully mix mentalism and magic but they are an extremely rare breed. For the rest of us it'll most likely just weaken what we do.
GarySumpter
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I have created a VERY organic, convincing, VISUAL booktest. Add me to Skype as STRESSFREEMEDIA and I'll gladly show you Smile
Dougini
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Quote:
On Jan 13, 2015, Scott Soloff wrote:
If you are magician doing a book test, then the explanation is that it has to be a trick.
When a mentalist performs a book test, well then, it's only a book.


That may be true in most cases. I dunno. But my family has always known me to do magic tricks. Not long ago, I decide to perform Outl@w FX's "Lun@". I have the whole series (Is that a Book Test, by the way?). My two sisters and their husbands. To this day they still talk about it. One sister demands I burn those books, LOL! They are convinced it's real! I'll do the sponge bunnies for them from now on! ROFL!

To me, Mentalism is the highest order of Magic. That's why I hold such respect and reverence for Bob Cassidy. I do not consider myself a Mentalist-heck, I don't even call myself a Magician any more. But if called upon, I can do things you DON'T find on YouTube! Bob has been a BIG help in guiding me. I have invaluable info I will not talk about here, or anywhere else! It is that important to me.

I guess I'm a pretty good actor. That Lun@ routine is LIGHT YEARS ahead of ANYTHING I've ever performed. I credit Rick Roth with that one. The book S0 D@rk gave me insight into playing it out. It works too well. It's disturbing. I've never done a Book Test before. Maybe this is something else.

I will look into Hoy. Thanks for that. I am still reading Fundamentals by Bob Cassidy. There is SO much there alone...He has several items I am going to purchase. But this is my focus right now. I won't talk about the Dr. Crow book, as that is another subject.

Thank you to the Mentalists here! You have enlightened me! Smile

Doug
GarySumpter
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I am about to release my new booktest, really unique..

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/154......es-sense

Gary
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