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mysterium New user Baltimore, MD 100 Posts |
Mysterium
http://www.themysterium.org |
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Lesault New user 63 Posts |
Quote:
http://www.salon.com/people/feature/2002/06/13/psychics/index.html :) does that make any sense to anyone else? Does that mean the worse I am at cold-reading, the more believable I'll be? Lesault |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
Dare I
Of all the "experts" here on John Edward, how many of you have actually spoken with the man and watched him work in person? Oh! I forgot... this is a "magicians" forum and thus NOTHING IS REAL, IT'S ALL SCIENCE AND IF YOU BELIEVE IN ANYTHING, YOU'RE CRACKED!... Especially if you were to do something as bold as to "defend" someone like JE. I won't go that far but I will challenge you to do the math... According to St. Randi the self-appointed guru of the First Athiest Temple of BS, et al... John Edward would have to have a staff of at least several hundred if not thousands just doing research... he would have a mega data base and software system as well as field agents whose travel, salaries, etc. must be covered, in order to get the inside info on each client (what their current home looks like, what their childhood home looked like, special little things that "only they would know" bits of info can be solicited, etc.) Of course, there's all that Psychological (a.k.a. Psycho Babble) JE uses on those he don't have info on... and has been using since he was 12, 13??? Though I'm offering the "Reader's Digest" version on this issue, I offer it as a pov to magicians, hoping that some of you might just see how rediculous some of OUR theories can be when it comes to the dollars and sense (not a type-o) of it all. If you are a person of "faith" (regardless the religious label) this "bash the psychic" pov also targets you, acts of blind faith, any kind of belief in miracles by ANYONE, et al. The objective (or so it would seem) of these supposedly "scientific" research groups (which, by the way, are domenated by males, most of whom admit to being Atheist or Agnostic at best... very few females, very, very few Ecclesiatical/Clerical members and of them, most represent only the Hebrew or Christian points of view, ignoring any credability or substance to other world religions)is to nullify human belief in anything outside ourselves and man's ability to "go beyond the Gods" via science (talk about arrogance... ) Sorry, but more and more of us are coming out of our broom closets and letting this old guard way of thinking, know that it wont be the "mainstay" within society and pointing out that even modern physics admits that an "unknown factor" exists... miracles are real and some people can do things that are "unexplainable" to the common mind. I have spoken with JE under totally cold conditions by phone. For many reasons, I cannot say that he's a "fake" in the sense of being a "cheater" but will sustain the idea that he's a Money Grabber that's willingly exploiting his talents... but who here isn't doing that and wouldn't do that if the opportunity presented itself. Who here isn't Jealous of the fact that John can make more money doing little more than a Q&A routine than you're doing with your thousands of dollars worth of equipment, years of study, and narrowed opinion? BEFORE YOU RESPOND Think about what I'm saying and see just how impractical it would be to set up all the technology and personnel certain groups claim John and other noted psychics are using... we're talking about enough money to fund a small nation here... get real!
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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Dave_J New user 30 Posts |
May I respectfuly point out that these debates NEVER go anywhere and that we should let the topic drop if we want to keep the tone of the forum friendly and up-beat. The two camps on this are too far apart that a calm discussion is nearly impossible.
Please let the tempers calm and get back to discussing how to make OUR performances better Dave |
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John Smetana ???? - 2009 499 Posts |
Further to Darmoe's comments. I find that most of the so called 'skeptics" are not really skeptics, they are scoffers...there's a big difference.
Best thoughts, John Smetana |
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WR Special user Utah 945 Posts |
Sad the wool is pulled over the eyes of the belivers in PSI.
Most magically yours, WR
"Tell Em WR sent Ya."
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Bill Palmatary New user Burbank (LA), Ca, USA 47 Posts |
Darmoe,
I'm just curious, have you done any research into cold reading? The nature of it is that you really don't have to know anything, and the phone is a perfectly good way to do it. And you dont need any previous knowledge to do it, no support staff etc, although it has been asserted that the members of the tv show staff do feed what is known as "warm" or "hot" information. I have watched him... he's incredibly good at what he does. But with just a little practice, my first cold reading had a couple thinking I was talking to the woman's dead mother.... after I had told them beforehand I was just going to show them how he does it, not do a real reading. I do urge you to take into consideration that almost everything you use today in your every day life would seem to be magical to someone 200 years ago. Miracles are what happens when someone cant explain something, that doesn't mean it won't be. And I don't think you'll find any scientist that wouldn't tell you there are many areas where very little knowledge is known. Please keep in mind that JE is using CR, which is a scientific method that uses statisitics and mathmatical probabilites to fool his sitters. He's a scientist at heart. It's very effective. |
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CENDRE Veteran user FRANCE 334 Posts |
Ooooh ! The eternal debate !
Belief vs Magician... We all have read for hours on this topic and we all know there is probably no outcome... But can I suggest that this topic takes a better place on the "Food for thought" forum. Good luck for all of those who will try to convince someone else in this thread !
Il était une fois...
CENDRE Paris FRANCE |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
>darmoe,
im just curious, have you done any research into cold reading? < Obviously you haven't a clue as to who I am... Not only have I done research on Cold Reading I've invested over 3 years now creating a tome known as "The Reader's Bible" which is being edited by Andy Leviss. I also created the Psychic Technologies marketing systems now sold through Andy's site... I'm doing a lecture tour starting in September teaching serious minded students of mentalism how to do Readings and market their talents. As if all this weren't enough... I've been involved with the shut eye side of the industry for most of my life, starting with and including Tent Revival shows, side shows, and so forth. I've intentionally stepped into potentially dangerous cult groups as an investigator and similarly, worked with law enforcement agencies across the country on investigating Psychic/ Spiritualistic fraud situations that were preditory (in other words, I didn't take the "safe" route all the self-proclaimed "experts" tend to do... I've been shot at, stabbed, had the car and house firebombed and more as the end result of my investigative work.) Further more... I have a doctorates degree (albeit a life achievement honors) in Religion, Religious History and Metaphysical Philosophy. I will agree with a previous post... this issue comes with a wide chasm. My posts, the articles I've released through On-Line Visions, etc. seek to close that gap and ask the magic fraternity to bring some sense of specified focus on the areas where the problems really are vs. this shotgun effect we've allowed to envelope any and all aspects of faith, the miraculous, etc. I will also recommend that folks look into some of their heroes in this industry... you'd be surprised who and how many hosts very deep beliefs and convictions around such things but, keep their mouth closed because of the bigotry that's been encouraged throughout the brotherhood. Not to be insulting, but how many here believe in Jesus Christ? Why? We can explain and duplicate everyone of his "miracles"... it is historic FACT that he wasn't the first "Demi-God" born of a virgin, that raised from the dead, etc. (there are literally dozens of such tales throughout world history that pre-date the whole JC tale by thousands of years... but then, I'm certain no one here has ever heard of Dionysus, Osiris or any of those other Gods of antiquity... right?) Yes, that's a dangerous comparison. I can promise you though, if the man were here today the majority of the skeptics/scoofers, etc. would be right there with Pat Roberston and Jerry Falwell, helping nail him to another cross. I'll confess... I've opened a very big can of worms in what I've stated. Not for the sake of debate but rather, to get people to think a bit about their own beliefs and probable double standards. In short, we can't place things into one all encompassing pigeon hole, no matter what the topic may be.
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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Bill Palmatary New user Burbank (LA), Ca, USA 47 Posts |
darmoe:
unfortunately, im new here, so i really dont have a clue who you are. but, after that response, you may end up being someone who can answer some of the questions I have with cold reading. I have a few questions: 1. whos andy & wheres his site, so i can go look at the marketing system, or at least how you Market the Marketing system. 2. when you say "serious minded students" does that means students who are dedicated, or believe they have powers? (or neither) 3. I'm curious what college gave you a doctorate in Metaphysical Philosophy. I didnt know you could study that specifically, so I'd like to look into it at their library if there is one online. 4. Because I'm new, I'm not sure what the "shut eye side" is. I'll get better with slang or specific terminologies as I go. 5. can you post some links to the online articles you've released. I'd be interested in reading them. 6. I hear your argument about JC, but we'd have to prove him first, and that really is a can of worms that will go on long after I'm gone, so we really can't use that as a basis for even other arguments. I think the most important thing you may have said was that we can't place things into an all encompassing pigeon hole. That is very true... I try to look at each thing objectively on a individual basis. It only serves to hinder insight when you categorize too soon. But eventually, unfortunately, extreme views are usually easily categorized with examination. Maybe you can chime in on the new post im going to make about collecting statistical data for cold readings, im sure you may have some good insight on that. |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
Quote: On 2002-06-21 11:56, Bill Palmatary wrote:
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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Mikael Eriksson Inner circle None of your business 1064 Posts |
Darmoe, I´m not sure I understand this, do you mean that Sai Baba are for real?
One of his most faithful followers (Conny Larsson, a Swede) recently abandoned him because of Sai Baba´s sexual contacts with minor boys, and because he was cheating using methods of magicians to do the miracles. Just read this: http://www.sokaren.se/INDEX135.HTML Mikael Quote:
On 2002-06-22 09:26, Darmoe wrote: |
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Agathon Regular user 161 Posts |
Darmoe points out that " modern physics admits that an "unknown factor" exists... miracles are real and some people can do things that are "unexplainable" to the common mind.
Which brings out the truth of the matter. All of these arguments are epistemlogical in nature. So if it is unexplainable, then why do people have an answer? Not knowing is not knowledge. Being unexplainable is not explaining. As Wittgenstein says "Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must remain silent." Charles Spector |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-06-22 10:55, Agathon wrote: And so I'd assume your point is that I and the larger aspect of the scientific community is wrong, because we admit there are things presently beyond our ability to fully explain or understand, but you and the skeptical world is right, so long as you can side-step and lend excuses (flimsy one's at that e.g. "coencidence" being one of the best...) about how things supposedly happen??? I don't think so. Now, I know my retort is harsh but I do not intend to turn this into a debate. I have an opinion based on actual experience, physical involvement adn about 35 years of occult practice. You have your opinion based on whatever it is you read and possibly studied. As Andre Kole said to me... "let's just agree to disagree" and leave it at that... even though we both still believe in miracles in our own way...
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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Bill Palmatary New user Burbank (LA), Ca, USA 47 Posts |
Quote:
And so I'd assume your point is that I and the larger aspect of the scientific community is wrong, because we admit there are things presently beyond our ability to fully explain or understand, but you and the skeptical world is right, so long as you can side-step and lend excuses (flimsy one's at that e.g. "coincidence" being one of the best...) about how things supposedly happen??? theres a few things wrong here. i think you'll find the vast majority of skeptics (not your definition, but the people who demand proof before belief or faith) are in fact scientists or have scientific tendencies, which would not put them in your camp. coincidence is a valid reason for a set of occurences happening if they tend to be random in nature, and over time exhibit randomeness again and again. I think you might have more success in your arguments if you abandon the 'argument by expertise' approach because noone here can verify any of your claims (over the net). I read your post where you mentioned someone walking on water, and whether or not that is true, and you witnessed it, but it carries as much credence/evidence as a 'ufo abductee' retelling his story to us. we have the same amount of proof, and i wouldnt be more persuaded if say, i didnt know him, but he insisted he hangs out at area 51 every night. it might even be a liability to you to state youve been involved in occult activity for 35 years and still believe it. initially thats sounds like someone who has fallen hook line, and poison punch to me. it might be good to use some verifiable, testable, and reproducable facts as arguments instead. your energy in defending the occult as real furthur motivates me to truly open my mind and consider the facts you might have avaliable for us. trust me, im the type that would love to find out proof that ghosts exist... i just doubt it, and noone has been able to do that for me either. im sure the person who does will turn my world upside down, and become very rich as well. im not sure that sai baba, even if he has performed miracles, somehow confirms jesus's existence, any more than my performing of miracles would. I lost your argument there. as for pierce college, i know it well. I played water polo in junior college, and pierce is one of the other junior colleges we used to play against. pierce is best known for its argiculture department.... and pierce is known as "cow school" at the neighboring junior colleges that dont have grazing fields. what professor was it? i may know him or her. i look forward to hearing some verifiable facts that might be very enlightening. |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
Unfortunately "honest" research and validation requires an opened mind... granted, there have been that small handful of folks who hold to the "staunch" position you are expressing here Bill, who have had experiences... shortly there after, no matter their credability and reputation before such, their peers and patrons turn on them and write them off as a quack...
All I know is what experience has shown to me... now in regards to that Walking on Water thing... find out who Andre Kole is and know that what I was saying was an insider's pun... In regards to Baba, I know only what I've seen in those that are involved with him at a very deep level. Not to go into detail but I was there when a most amazing "Miracle" came about... it has been mentioned more than once on several magic related boards so I needn't waste space here. Science & Religion were once a part of the same element. It was segregated at the onset of the Dark Ages and only portions of it "allowed back in" here and there, so it could be manipulated to tell "a truth" based on what the Status Quo wanted to here (bare in mind, Rome didn't accept that the earth was round until the 1920s and it was sacrelige to state otherwise -- see Monkey Trial transcripts for insights --) Coencidence, no matter how you spell it, is an excuse -- the "magician's out". Within Occult/Spiritual traditions IT IS NOT RECOGNIZED... everything happens with reason, logic and purpose... it all has an explanation because it all is science. As I've said, it is merely an aspect of science yet explained and understood... we can't ignore it, sweep it under a rug, etc. it exists and it does make sense when you do your research, get involved and EXPERIENCE IT! Oh! Do bare in mind that there is a very deep esoteric side to the more traditional and "accepted" religions of the world e.g. Occult practices and insights NOT shared with the masses. Again, everything in the ritual of worship has it's place, meaning and effect. My position is not as "backward" as you are assuming... I'm merely stating that just because we know how such and such is done, does not mean someone using that knowledge is "cheating" or bilking the public. Muscle Reading, by scientific perspective, literally is a form of telepathy... you, as the reciever can discern and act upon the thought of commands of the person you are Reading. Sure, we understand what allows this, but that does not negate that it was and is part of genuine Psychic/Occult technology just as language, writing, math, chemistry, physics, etc. are all part and parcel core elements of what was once reserved and taught only to students of the Mystery Schools and were even ***ed by the auspices of the church (well, reserved for nobels and clergy). Just being able to write was once an occult skill... a mystery. Though we know of it, accept it and use it, has this devalued it's power and ability to create or destroy? I think not!
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
I don't want to add to the nascent theological debate developing around this topic. That sort of thing must surely belong on a different forum. However, I would like to add that some very close business associates of mine were witnesses to (and even indirectly involved in) an example of Van Praagh collecting and using pre-show information during a taping of the syndicated talk show Donny and Marie a while back.
My publicist, her daughter, and a daughter's friend were in the greenroom with Van Praagh. The daughter's friend was a huge fan and had purchased his books. While in the greenroom this woman told Van Praagh all about her father's death. Later, during the taping, when Van Praagh wasn't getting anywhere with the hosts of the show, he turned to a member of the audience and gave her a detailed reading. You guessed it, the audience member was the same woman who had offered up the information in the greenroom. My publicist and her daughter were shocked. The woman herself was thrilled. As a true believer, she either did not recall that she had given this same information to Van Praagh directly, or she didn't see it as pertinent to the reading. All she cared about was that, in her mind, she had made contact with her father. It seems to me this is the sort of preshow effort most often attributed to Van Praagh. I have never actually read a knowlegeable source who suggested the sorts of extreme methods brought up by Darmoe, and his posts along those lines appear to me to be a sort of straw man attack against skepticism. In any case, Van Praaghs techniques as I have seen them make for some pretty bad mediumship, but some very impressive mentalism. It isn't theater, but it is something I can learn from. Sincerely, Christopher Carter |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
I too have heard stories on Mr. VP... another couple to watch are the new Pet Psychic lady who does some of the worse pumping I've ever seen anyone get away with... and George Anderson (I think that's right) who uses a pen and writing pad during his readings to "doodle"... this is an old ploy used to cop notes using a GEM SEE or Alcohol type peek via the pen.
I'm not defending people like this... I will kindof side with JE and even Geller in that I've spoken with both upon more than one occassion and from what I have experienced with these two, I don't think they are intentionally defrauding the public... granted, I've not dug in deep on JE... Uri on the other hand has bent over backwards offering kindnesses to my family due to my step-daughters illness and his connection with related research (legit medical research). I know some of these guys do all the dirty work... I'm also aware of enough to know that most of the older books on Mentalism tell you to promote yourself along that thin line -- neither admitting or negating... I know that Lee Earle points out "No one wants to hire a fake psychic" which is exceptionally true. I also believe, there is just way more out there than the human ego and science is presently capable of explaining to an acceptable end. Any single person that has had an honest "Spiritual Experience" be it psychic or otherwise; at church or in a fox hole... knows there is more to it than some elements of this society (the magician's world) want to allow. As I said before, If you believe in and claim a genuine testimony of Jesus, or Krishna or whomever YOU CANNOT NEGATE THE EXISTENCE OF "GIFTS" OR "MIRACLES" OR "THE MIRACULOUS"... you can look upon me and others like me as being a fool or quack, but we know from our heart, what we've been allowed to "see"... you cannot take that from us, so why do so many try so hard to do so? Jealousy of not knowing such things perhaps? If that's the case... Let go! Stop trying to find the grail and allow it to happen... it's that simple.
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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christopher carter Special user 660 Posts |
Darmoe,
I think there is much truth in what you are saying. And it seems as if you feel like a member of a persecuted minority. That may be a reality as well. I would suggest, however, that much of what I have read from you on this particular topic smacks to me of anti-rationalist, or to be more specific, anti-atheist, bigotry. Possibly intolerance can go both ways? I still think this is the sort of issue that belongs on another forum. Warmest Regards, Christopher Carter |
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Darmoe Special user Ohio 741 Posts |
Quote:
On 2002-06-25 20:32, christopher carter wrote: You may have a point there... but when you are "out numbered" you tend to go to extremes... in truth, I'm calmed down a great deal more these days than I once was, when it came to such things. I am a "realist" and I have/do investigate "Psychics" almost everywhere I go. Recently I helped with a limited investigation involving the Reno City Police who were checking some very "obvious" cons preying on the Hispanic & Black communities there... the classic "You have a curse and for a mere $5,000.00 I can cast a spell that will remove it." type BS. Trust me on this... I'm merciless when it comes to Psychic/Sprititual fraud, be it a cult leader or back room Reader. I feel by having the knoweldge and background I have on either side of this fence lends to me a very good position to "judge". TRIVIA... when managing the Psychic Institute in Las Vegas I met over 200 professional Readers... of that group less than half-a-dozen "qualified" in my book as being anything remotely close to "legit"... I then proceeded to "expose" the others (of higher public repute) as best I could via media, law enforcement, etc.
"I firmly believe that of all the Arts and Crafts of Mentalism, there is nothing more satisfying than one who is a first-class Reader. It is the ultimate in Mentalism..." - Tony Corinda * 13 Steps To Mentalism
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