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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Nothing up my sleeve... » » Problem With My Tenkai Pennies? (7 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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KenRyan
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Can I get a few opinions on something? I am going through David Roth's Expert Coin Magic, by Richard Kaufman, and was working on his version of Tenkai Pennies. When I thought I had it down (looked good in the mirror), I tested it out on my wife. When I opened my palms she just said, "yeah so? I expected you to have 2 coins in your right hand. That's what you did, right?" Gah!

She said she didn't actually see the coin change hands. But the moves - sliding the LH coin up to the finger tips, then doing the same thing with the RH coin - looked to her like just what it was - me sliding the SAME coin up my RH as my LH.

Can anyone give me any thoughts as to why this might be? I know it's hard to opine when you can't see what I'm doing. I'll video myself doing it later today if that will help. But honestly, I kind of wondered what the "effect" of this was supposed to be myself until I saw a video of someone else do it.

Thanks!

Ken
Ray Haining
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Roth's version is a bit angle-dependent. It uses the Malini subtlety. The original uses the Tenkai back clip, which allows the full palm to be shown and is much less angle-dependent--much more deceptive. Also, Roth uses half-dollar-size coins, whereas the original uses pennies, which, I think, would be difficult, but not impossible, to use in Roth's version as he uses a CP. I think the original is better. Also, in the original, you can borrow the coins.
KenRyan
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Thanks Ray. I think you're right. We watched a video that MB linked to in another thread - http://pubtricks.com/?trick=pub-tenkai-trick.wmv&id=1681 - and my wife and I watched it trying to figure it out. I am amazed that my wife is already keenly intuitive about how these are done. She actually took my halfs and said, "I think he may have done it like this." And she did something (none of the "proper ways") and totally tricked me! She then also noticed the position of the RH in the video and correctly (apparently) surmised that the coin was clipped. Weirdly, right now I have the dexterity and she has the intuition and innate understanding. Together we'd be a heck of a magician:-).

Anyway, thanks again Ray. Now I need to find the Revised Bobo's to see how to move that coin into the clip that quickly.

Cheers!

Ken
Mb217
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I agree with Ray here, and perhaps you are not quite presenting it right to your wife. Roth's version isn't the way most people do the little trick, as there are easier ways to do it, as in the little video you posted from something I posted long ago here. And you're right, without seeing what you're doing, it's a bit tough to better analyze, but I do know that if Roth did this little effect to your wife (without her ever have seeing it from you) she would probably not figure it out anywhere as easily. Smile And figuring things out from videos is easy if you keep watching good enough. Smile I've done the effect for a long time, even used it in an effect I came up with called "Ike & Mike Returns." *Also, I added a little "something-something" (quite a while back now) to it to make it a bit even more perplexing. Smile

www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g_t97Twzq4

The effect was originally done by Tenkai with pennies, and also using a different method than what you see more regularly now. I actually believe the newer method made the trick a bit easier to do. Mostly half dollars are used nowadays (much easier to see and seemingly more cleanly to follow), and also, the use of the little flim-flam move there (PV) is pretty much imperceptible by specs when done correctly and with confidence. Close-up Mad Man, Jay Sankey is a master using these moves in his Mr. Clean Coins Across effect. Also, a few years back Japanese magic sensation, Ponta The Smith re-popularized the old effect doing it a bit differently, perhaps even a bit more magically.

I still do this little gem now & again, and it continues to on-the-spot amaze people. Smile Keep working with it and you will amaze people with it too, perhaps even your wife one day. Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
bdekolta
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Ken, you need to step back and stop trying to be an expert coin worker in just a few months. The issues with the Roth version of Tenkai pennies is the same as with the edge grip. It isn't technically difficult to do but it is very advanced to handle the angles and other issues involved.

I've watched your posts over the past few months (weeks?) and you are asking questions about moves that many of us spent months or years learning. There are no answers to your questions. Your wife knew because she either saw or suspected what was going on. Either way that all points to your experience or technique. Neither of those can be answered by anyone here. Only you can work through these things.

I know this sounds harsh but you need to step back and spend some time learning your craft. The questions will answer themselves at that point.
fonda57
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But always feel free to ask questions and keep learning, have fun with magic. That's part of the fun of an ongoing magic session.
I j
Ray Haining
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I think Ken is going about learning coin magic in the right way. He's going through Roth in a methodical way, trying things out, observing weaknesses and strengths in various moves and routines, asking questions. Eventually, he will have gone through most of the major literature on coin magic and, along the way, will decide what works for him and what doesn't. He has the advantage of the Café to interact with other magicians more experienced than himself, which can only accelerate his learning process.

Mb, your Tenkai pennies is very good. I, for one, cannot do the move required with half dollars. I love, love, love Sankey's Mr. Clean Coins Across. I tried doing it with half dollars and even quarters. I still work on the routine from time to time, but I'll probably never get it down. It looks so very magical in Sankey's hands.

You also threw in a subtlety in your Tenkai pennies routine, which is not in the original and which is very deceptive. Nice job.
KenRyan
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Quote:
if Roth did this little effect to your wife (without her ever have seeing it from you) she would probably not figure it out anywhere as easily.


Oh MB, of course! I hope I didn't impliy anything like that. I'm just trying to learn as much as I can about this move so that I understand what I (obviously) did wrong.

Thanks for the tips!

Ken
harris
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Ken,

Sounds like you are on the right path.

It is great to hear about a wife that is willing to help, and you are open to her feedback.

My wife is a blessing in and out of magic. When we first met, she jokingly said she would have "Did I flash", on my tombstone.

Keep growing and glowing in And out of magic.

Harris
still 2 old to know everything
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Mb217
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No problem Ken, just wanted to somewhat make it apparent that it truly depends on how well you are doing the effect that sets the outcome as to spec's perceptions.

With that, I believe all are right here in their points to you and about you, and that includes bdekolta here to some real degree as well. I think it is all good advice and food for thought. Heed it all well. Smile

That said, I think it's great that you are so eager to learn and as such so many questions pop up on this & that. It's happened to us all, only many of us did not have this wonderful forum here to question (and get answers) like a crystal ball. Smile It's just the way it is nowadays. Not your fault, but definitely it can be a great help in better understanding faster than what was, as it also could possibly help you skip some pages. Smile Regardless, you still have to put the work in to get it all down good, no matter what you know. It's like you can learn everything you need to know about the technique of being a fast draw in the old Wild West, but that don't make you ready to take on Jesse James, Doc Holiday or even Clint Eastwood. Smile All that takes a lot of practice and time aka, "The Journey" of it all.

Good journey to you my friend, and again "Welcome" here. Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Atom3339
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^ Right on, Marion!

Smile
TH

Occupy Your Dream
Ray Haining
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I became interested in magic when I was five years old. However, from that time until I was 19, I knew no other magicians, and the only way I had to learn magic was from books I checked out in the local library and the occasional trick I was able to afford to buy from Tannen's. There were no magic clubs in the areas I lived (except for a short time I lived in Rockville Center, where I attended two sessions), certainly no internet and Café.

So when bdekolta says, "you are asking questions about moves that many of us spent months or years learning," that is certainly true in my case, but if only I had had access to something like the Café, how much more quickly would have been the learning process and how much more exciting. So I don't think asking questions should be discouraged.

Of course, there are things that can only be learned by experience--experience in performing. Ken needs to eventually focus on a few tricks he feels comfortable with and get out there and perform. That's where the rubber meets the road, and maybe in time he'll come to realize he has no talent in magic and move on to something else. Or maybe he'll be the next T. Nelson Downs. Who knows? ("I got my start asking silly question on a site called the Magic Café.")

Perhaps Ken should keep his and his wife's ruminations about how tricks are done to himself. Marion is absolutely right, that just because his wife is able to figure out how he, himself, is doing something does not mean that it is a bad trick, but perhaps only Ken's handling of it.

As far as figuring out methods by watching a video performance over and over again, one time I did a performance and the host videotaped and watched it over and over until he figured out everything I had done. [Interestingly, the one trick that had him the most stumped was the classic ring on wand (the power of the classics!).] That this can be done is true of almost every trick out there (although I could have watched Marion's crimp change for a thousand years and never figured out where he was hiding that coin!). Just part of the new world we are all living in. (However, if I can, I don't allow my performances to be recorded anymore.)

Yes, speculations as to how certain effects are accomplished should not be aired on this site--or at least this thread. There's a section called "Secret Sessions," which is the more proper place for such activity. But even there, there should be some reason other than trying to figure something out just for curiosity's sake.

But please, let's not discourage people from asking questions.
KenRyan
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Thanks again for the advice. I was just saying last night that I was glad I was a musician (guitar player), because it serves as a good analog to how long it takes to truly be able to play, say, a particularly difficult song correctly. If you're just starting out, you don't even know how to form chords. Sure, you can look at a chart that tells you where to put your fingers. But it takes months (assuming regular practice) to be able to play chords properly such that they not only sound good, but you are also able to smoothly and quickly change chords. Then there is the right hand. Correct strumming can make the difference between amateur and professional playing. Then there are the songs themselves. Some songs can be played with just a few of the easiest chords. Others are much more difficult. Then comes finger-picking/finger-style playing, which involves a whole new level of learning and dexterity with the right hand. THEN the left hand has to learn another level for playing lead parts or other more difficult single-note playing. Etc. Etc. I've been playing guitar for 35 years. I can do most of that stuff. I'm a professional musician. HOWEVER, there are still lots of things I CAN'T do on guitar - mainly because there is no need, so I never learned or practiced those things.

Once, when I was in high school, I sat at my record player (remember those?:)) putting on and taking off the needle every few seconds so I could learn Leader of the Band, by Dan Fogelberg. It was my first attempt at finger-style. 6 or 7 hours passed by before I knew what had happened. I still couldn't play it, but I KNEW where to put all the fingers of both hands, and when. After that, it was a matter of practicing every day until I could play the entire song and sing it too. There are still times when my fingers flub a section if I have not practiced recently.

So I do understand the nature of learning a mechanical skill ultimately destined to be performed in front of a crowd. Yes, I am super motivated and excited by magic (at the moment I'm focusing on coin magic), so I devote lots of time and attention to it. I want to learn it RIGHT before I devote the many hours it takes to hone the actual physical skill to the right level. THAT is why I'm asking so many questions all the time. I need to know if I'm not understanding something fully, or if I am doing something wrong, so that I don't engrain mistakes into my neural pathways as I drill the skills. I do NOT expect to be a professional after a few months. It seems that my questions send that message, and others are being helpful when they try to set me straight. I appreciate all the guidance. There is a lot that I don't know, and I will keep asking questions in those cases. This forum is a fabulous resource and I know I'm lucky to have it.

Cheers!

Ken
harris
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I did the same thing learning harmonica. First records and then on cassette tapes.

My playing to a giant leap forward when I got a face to face teacher. (that and Cd's and playing with a band)

The same is true with coin magic. My learning to a step forward when I started attending lectures and club meetings and DVD's.

The title of your thread "My Tenkai" is very telling.

Harris
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Mb217
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T'was ever thus…Attitude Determines Altitude. And Ken shows great attitude here…Onward friends! Smile
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
Richard Kaufman
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I think most people, if they perform The Tenkai Pennies, use the original version. There's a reason that many people have performed that, while few people perform Roth's handling.

Sol Stone does the Tenkai Pennies beautifully!
KenRyan
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I actually did it (the original version) - for a real live person - successfully! Woohoo! It only took practicing the Goshman (Tenkai) Pinch about 150 times:-P. And I still can't do it error-free every time. But I did get up the nerve to demo it and it worked perfectly. These are the moments that fuel the fire (as if my fire needed any more fuel at the moment):).
VernonOnCoins
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Check out New Tenkai Pennies by Ponta. Best version I have ever seen.
DallasFrank
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Ken
here is a link to the old version.It is performed by Daryl.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gzNduu675I

Here is link to Ponta's version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obF_FoKohSY

Just remember coin work is a long and arduous journey.Don't get discouraged just keep working and pay your dues.

Frank
Mb217
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Quote:
On Jan 17, 2015, VernonOnCoins wrote:
Check out New Tenkai Pennies by Ponta. Best version I have ever seen.


I think that move by Ponta in his version of TP, comes from something Homer Liwag has been doing in his coin work for years. I'm just sayin'.
*Check out my latest: MBs Morgan w/ BONUS: Destiny, Copper Silver INC, Double Trouble, FlySki, Crimp Change - REDUX!, and other fine magic at gumroad.com/mb217magic Smile


"Believe in YOU, and you will see the greatest magic that ever was." -Mb Smile
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