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magicalaurie
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"Rather than address the real problem, i.e. the destruction of life sustaining caribou habitat, Alberta has chosen to scapegoat wolves, many of which are now using an extensive, industry-generated network of new roads and corridors to reach dwindling numbers of caribou.

For a decade now, the Alberta government has hired biologists, along with the equivalent of hit men, to kill more than 1,000 wolves via aerial gunning from helicopters, poisoning with strychnine, and strangling with neck snares. They also trap, collar, and create so-called "Judas" wolves, which are used to betray the location of other pack members. After killing all the members of the pack except the collared wolf, the "Judas" wolf then leads the gunners to more wolves and watches as they too are slaughtered.

In addition to aerial gunning, strychnine is set out to poison wolves. Many other species that incidentally eat the poison also die excruciating deaths. Neck snares, another form of torture and cause of suffering, are also employed. Information up to 2012 shows that in the Little Smokey region of Alberta, neck snares (primarily) killed a minimum of 676 other animals in addition to wolves. Ironically, caribou were among the non-target animals that were killed."


Http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/chris-genov......770.html
magicfish
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I love wolves.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Hmm. You can read the original research article here.

The article you link is embarrassingly sophomoric. The government is not hiring anyone to kill the wolves. In this case, biologists used legal means to reduce wolf populations (which are currently healthy) to see if it stabilized the highly threatened woodland caribou populations.

The biologists in question did shoot and use strychnine. None of the other methods were used by the biologists, but they do note that trappers also legally work in the area. I love the anthropomorphizing of the "Judas" wolf. Indeed, wolves were collared so that their packs could be located. It's absurd at best to call this creating "Judas wolves".

I have no idea where the claim about the 676 other animal deaths comes from; I didn't see it in the research. It looks to me like the Huff Post author (and the one he links to) is compiling a wide array of stories, numbers and ideas and laying it all on the research study. Disingenuous at best.

As for habitat, the study deals with that too. This part is well understood. The question they dealt with is whether predator reduction IN COMBINATION WITH HABITAT RENEWAL would increase population growth.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
landmark
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Quote:
The government is not hiring anyone to kill the wolves.


From the abstract:

Quote:
We monitored annual survival for 172 adult female caribou and calf recruitment from 2000 through 2012 and conducted a provincial government delivered wolf population reduction program annually during the winters of 2005–2006 to 2012 (


From the study:
Quote:
Using a helicopter, we then subsequently attempted to lethally remove all remaining members of each pack through aerial-shooting throughout the winter


It doesn't sound to me like the reduction program was a weight reducing program. Am I missing anything here?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2015, landmark wrote:
Quote:
The government is not hiring anyone to kill the wolves.


From the abstract:

Quote:
We monitored annual survival for 172 adult female caribou and calf recruitment from 2000 through 2012 and conducted a provincial government delivered wolf population reduction program annually during the winters of 2005–2006 to 2012 (


From the study:
Quote:
Using a helicopter, we then subsequently attempted to lethally remove all remaining members of each pack through aerial-shooting throughout the winter


It doesn't sound to me like the reduction program was a weight reducing program. Am I missing anything here?


No. They definitely killed some wolves and make no bones about it. They were not "hired to kill wolves"; they killed them as part of their study with the full knowledge and support of the government. Big difference.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
magicalaurie
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Well, the government helps people kill things all the time. The so called "Ministry"s seems pretty keen on that kind of thing. Thanks for the further info, John. As you may be able to discern from the time-stamp, I was on my lunch break when I came across this issue and didn't have time to research further but felt it was worth mentioning. I'll take a look at the source you provided. Thanks.

Is the fact that the wolves you mention were killed with full knowledge and support of the government supposed to be reassuring somehow? Extermination at the hands of the humans needs to be taken off the table as an option, in my opinion. Government sanctioning doesn't set my mind at ease in the least. Perhaps you've missed some of my comments regarding world "leaders" and the "law" recently.

I don't care about the "Judas" reference so much, I think people can grasp the point behind it. Some fantastic trackers at work, gotta follow a collared wolf to find the rest of them.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Depends on what you mean by "full support of the government". They are trying to determine the best approach to stabilizing and increasing the caribou herds. Reducing local predation seems like a pretty sensible short-term plan to maintain the herds while habitat is being reclaimed. I'm no expert, but I do know that caribou rely on lichens and mosses from old-growth forest. You just can't put that in place in a couple of years.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
magicalaurie
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Right. So, main point being, people took the habitat away and wolves will be exterminated to cover the damage humans created?
Magnus Eisengrim
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Nobody is advocating exterminating wolves.

The real problem is moving forward. If the caribou have limited habitat and are declining due to predation, then habitat reclamation is likely too slow to help them. You can't undo history; but you might wish to manage the present to improve every species long-term prospects.

Wouldn't it be great if we can get to a point where all the humans have jobs, and all the habitat is reclaimed such that all the species are sustainable with minimal human intervention? I think so. And I do not believe that we'll have it by leaving things to sort themselves out. Not now.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
magicalaurie
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The wolves they kill I consider will have been exterminated. Call it what you want.

Again, I find it very telling they used a collared wolf to find the rest. Speaks volumes to how people work and what they really know about any of these creatures. Gives some insight into what their "best" way really is.

Perhaps these intelligent folks might have considered the "moving forward" when they were moving forward removing the habitat in the first place. What does this kind of moving forward say about the intelligence of those calling the shots, literally, here? Why not be fair and line up the humans involved and take them down with the wolves, hmm? Some realization there that killing the predators won't cut it? Isn't a viable option when you really get down to it? Maybe life is sacred. Perhaps a little extrapolation of that fact would have gone a long way in the first place and still will today.

Are those who are killing these wolves being paid to do it? I expect so. Maybe that's where the "hired" reference comes in.

Consider, John, that perhaps the great scenario you mention, is one we in fact started with.
Magnus Eisengrim
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2015, magicalaurie wrote:
The wolves they kill I consider will have been exterminated. Call it what you want.

Again, I find it very telling they used a collared wolf to find the rest. Speaks volumes to how people work and what they really know about any of these creatures. Gives some insight into what their "best" way really is.


I don't follow. If the goal is to kill a pack of wolves, it's a good idea to know where the pack is. It's not "nice", but neither are the wolves. They would not have the slightest fit of conscience over exterminating a herd of caribou.

Quote:
Perhaps these intelligent folks might have considered the "moving forward" when they were moving forward removing the habitat in the first place. What does this kind of moving forward say about the intelligence of those calling the shots, literally, here? Why not be fair and line up the humans involved and take them down with the wolves, hmm? Some realization there that killing the predators won't cut it? Isn't a viable option when you really get down to it? Maybe life is sacred. Perhaps a little extrapolation of that fact would have gone a long way in the first place and still will today.


Those scientists are no more responsible for the current state of caribou populations than you and I are.

Quote:
Consider, John, that perhaps the great scenario you mention, is one we in fact have started with.


Nobody can make history run backwards. We can pine for the past all we want, but our task is to start with the present and make the future the best that we can.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
S2000magician
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Never Cry Wolf, anyone?

magicalaurie
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Quote:
On Jan 19, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:

I don't follow. If the goal is to kill a pack of wolves, it's a good idea to know where the pack is.



Precisely. You don't follow and neither do the "trackers". My point being, what do these "experts" really know about any of this? They don't know wolves and they don't know caribou and they don't know themselves, or do they? Human ignorance and arrogance has led to this. And they just drive on with it. Mind boggling.

Quote:
On Jan 19, 2015, Magnus Eisengrim wrote:
Those scientists are no more responsible for the current state of caribou populations than you and I are.


C'mon, John. Not you, too. I'm not an idiot. I didn't say the scientists were responsible. I meant the humans who were responsible for the removal of caribou habitat and the resulting decline in caribou. Line 'em up with the wolves. Some of them might have been scientists, though. Who knows? Didn't the Huffington article comment on some caribou being killed by means intended for the wolves? How 'bout that? OP. Will need to find the source of that info. I wonder who else they should do away with.

http://www.theprovince.com/opinion/Opini......ory.html


"EDMONTON – Internal government reports say Alberta will have to expand its wolf kill to protect more threatened caribou herds living on ranges heavily disturbed by industry, despite official assurances that no such measures are planned.

Observers say the documents — obtained by The Canadian Press under freedom-of-information legislation — represent the true state of affairs as the province prepares to release range plans for it northern foothills."

http://www.680news.com/2015/01/07/observ......-denial/


From the research paper discussion:

"other management actions like caribou translocations can buy time"
Magnus Eisengrim
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The first line of that article is simply false. "To protect caribou, Alberta government biologists have shot and poisoned 1,000 wolves and hundreds of other animals."

The truth is that none of those animals were "killed to protect caribou." Wolves and other animals were killed by trappers for their commercial value, and by the scientists in question to discover whether reducing predation would lead to an increase in caribou herd population.

I have no problems with arguing that those things shouldn't happen. But I do have a problem with dishonesty. The Province's article is simply not respecting the facts. And neither did the article in the OP.

Maybe trapping should be outlawed. Maybe the scientists shouldn't have conducted the experiment. Those are fair enough positions. But it does no one any good to distort the truth and to falsely ascribe actions and motivations.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
magicalaurie
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John, that was an Opinion piece by Dick Dekker:
"As an independent wildlife ecologist and author, Dick Dekker, PhD, has studied wolves and their prey species in Jasper National Park since 1965. His publications include some 250 titles, including a dozen wildlife books published in Canada, the U.S. and the Netherlands."

The article title begins with "Opinion"

....................

" 'If you’re serious about caribou conservation, you’re going to have to have some stop-gap measures in place to buy time,' said Stan Boutin, a caribou biologist at the University of Alberta.

'The only stop-gap measure the government has currently entertained is the wolf removal. How they think they can distribute a plan that doesn’t have a short-term solution in place seems absurd to me.'”


http://www.680news.com/2015/01/07/observ......-denial/


From the research paper discussion:

"other management actions like caribou translocations can buy time"
Magnus Eisengrim
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Laurie don't misunderstand me. I'm all for habitat reclamation and for other actions. I'm simply responding to some egregious factual errors.
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
magicalaurie
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magicalaurie
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“ 'The difference is you don’t have to import caribou and you don’t have to keep exporting them, cows and calves, and handling them all the time. You just create a large area that is free of predators. The goal in both cases is you don’t have to do direct predator removals, '”

http://www.rmoutlook.com/article/2014101......st-herds
Magnus Eisengrim
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"You just create a large area that is free of predators..." sure, have it by Tuesday Smile
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.--Yeats
magicalaurie
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"Caribou calves born in the Revelstoke and the Klinse-Za maternal pens are already showing a higher than average survival rate, compared to wild-born calves.

The Revelstoke pen, which saw its first season of use this spring and summer, has seen a 100 per cent calf-survival rate; a number unheard of in the wild."
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