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The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Should we boycott Derren Brown? (30 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

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phillsmiff
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Not 100% on topic but close enough: a local astrologist (who did readings using that augur in particular) recently got done:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-30994630

He made hundreds of thousands using stupid tricks to con people who could least afford it. I realise this is a very extreme case but I kind of feel like this is one distant end of the continuity of behaviour we are discussing. In my opinion the question is not whether the public should be protected from such conmen, but where we draw the line between permissible and unforgivable.

Phill
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george1953
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When I see these sort of stories I just can't believe how gullible some people are, if he could know the lottery numbers why hasn't he won it. Why does he have to work and send out leaflets. Come on wake up.
Next you will be telling me that I don't really have a rich Nigerian uncle either.
By failing to prepare, we are preparing to fail.
Martin Pulman
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Sometimes I wonder who is fooling who on these threads. To read some if the replies in recent months we seem to be surrounded by readers who do not offer advice, mediums who refuse to contact the dead and clients who hand over their money time after time purely for a repeat "entertainment" performance.

I think many people have missed the point of my question - that is probably my fault for wording it poorly. Everyone is welcome to their beliefs in ESP, tarot, dowsing or the Loch Ness Monster. I simply don't understand why a mentalism forum has to be polluted by such beliefs.

We are illusionists of the mind. I happen to think that is a pretty noble and difficult pursuit involving acting skills, stagecraft, vocal technique, physical skills, audience management and, hopefully, charisma.

People doing readings for $20 a pop at psychic fairs are involved in a far more banal and easy pursuit in comparison.
Lucien Astor
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Something from recent memory... I wonder what people here thought about the Eugene Burger lecture, especially some of the more "controversial" opinions & approaches?

He spent considerable time on routines involving messages from spirits, who deliver insights about the future (albeit stock lines). He never said that the spirits he 'contacted' were fake or theatrical. When asked about disclaimers, he vociferously denounced the need for for them, opining that they were implied by the context. I recognize that he is not selling himself as a for-profit healer/psychic (outside his performing fee), but he seems to be skirting a line many here seem to find indefensible.

For the record, I agree with him.
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IAIN
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote:
I think many people have missed the point of my question - that is probably my fault for wording it poorly. Everyone is welcome to their beliefs in ESP, tarot, dowsing or the Loch Ness Monster. I simply don't understand why a mentalism forum has to be polluted by such beliefs.

We are illusionists of the mind. I happen to think that is a pretty noble and difficult pursuit involving acting skills, stagecraft, vocal technique, physical skills, audience management and, hopefully, charisma.


*please read this in a non-confrontational, polite tone*
firstly, the term "polluted" is somewhat negative - is that fair?

...i get that you don't like those things, but this forum isn't just for you and your beliefs/views...that would be Martin's Café...so those people who do believe such things and also study and/or perform mentalism are completely within their rights to bring those things to the surface (nessie pun not meant), because they may use them in their performance..so its natural to want to discuss those things...i am a bit surprised that you are against those things, as I think you mentioned performing ESP based routines yourself, and being an actor - surely you research these things because it can add extra layers to a presentation...

and for some people, they may not want to be seen as an "illusionist of the mind", whatever that is...they may want something else out of it, because what they do is entirely personal to them...i find it odd that you are trying to somewhat censor people with those beliefs (esp, tarot, dowsing and so on) because our books are packed full of those things for performing (or at least studying)...

so what exactly do you consider suitable for discussion martin? and would it be too much to ask for you to start a thread on something that you enjoy please?
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Chaz93
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Hear, Hear!
Amirá
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I think that in the base of this discussion is something wrong. We are all not the same.
Yes, we share some aspects in our workings, but we just can say that we all are "illusionist of the mind"

We are humans that write opinions and thoughts. Each one with his own beliefs and like it or not, especially in this subforum of Mentalism, life´s paradigms and perspective will arrive.

Regarding the initial question, I don't care about exposure honestly. I prefer to focus my energies in other topics and whenever someone confronts me with exposure, I just train my astuteness to take that in my favor.
As other said, exposure was and will be part of our surroundings, and until this day, our performance art didn't die, so that can be a good signal about the real repercussion of some guys telling some techniques and secrets to the public.


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IAIN
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, phillsmiff wrote:
Not 100% on topic but close enough: a local astrologist (who did readings using that augur in particular) recently got done:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-30994630

He made hundreds of thousands using stupid tricks to con people who could least afford it. I realise this is a very extreme case but I kind of feel like this is one distant end of the continuity of behaviour we are discussing. In my opinion the question is not whether the public should be protected from such conmen, but where we draw the line between permissible and unforgivable.

Phill


in the back of the Metro, the free paper in london, the back pages are full of people like him...i thought they'd have to be verified to advertise in a paper, but apparently not...
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, IAIN wrote:
so what exactly do you consider suitable for discussion martin?


Mentalism?
mastermindreader
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I have to agree with Iain here. If ESP, astrology, Tarot, etc. aren't proper topics for discussion here, why are the classic texts of mentalism literally filled with presentations based on them?
IAIN
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, IAIN wrote:
so what exactly do you consider suitable for discussion martin?


Mentalism?


Martin, please help us out...can you expand on that please...let us know what you think is a suitable topic...
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truman
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote:
I think many people have missed the point of my question - that is probably my fault for wording it poorly. Everyone is welcome to their beliefs in ESP, tarot, dowsing or the Loch Ness Monster. I simply don't understand why a mentalism forum has to be polluted by such beliefs.


I'm in the middle of Max Maven's "Prism," and there are effects that incorporate ESP, tarot, astrology, and pendulums in the book (amongst many other things). A mentalism forum should be the appropriate place to discuss all of the above as they pertain to the performance of mentalism. It seems to me that your objection is to the *belief* that supernatural or metaphysical forces can truly be involved in the demonstration of ESP abilities or the utilization of the "occult" tools. There are other New Age or occult forums for people who hold those beliefs to discuss them. I haven't found those discussions here, though.
Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
I have to agree with Iain here. If ESP, astrology, Tarot, etc. aren't proper topics for discussion here, why are the classic texts of mentalism literally filled with presentations based on them?


I have no problem with any topic being discussed within the context of a mentalism presentation. The whole art is obviously founded on such topics. But increasingly that is not how such subjects are discussed or pitched here. Threads are started asking for advice on cold reading texts to be used in stand-alone tarot or links to studies proving people have made contact beyond the grave. None of which contribute in any positive way to presenting mentalism. Other threads are promoting material that are, almost totally, guides to conning people during private readings.

To piggy-back on David's excellent analogy (if he'll forgive me!) it is as if an online forum discussing stage and television effects was being infiltrated by people claiming they could really fly or knew a place to film real dinosaurs. One would hope such people would be politely but firmly told they had misunderstood the nature of what was being discussed.
IAIN
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And I would say that those true beliefs are still worth discussion on here, because they often lead to interesting ideas and presentational angles to explore...i don't think we've ever discussed "which quartz crystal do you find gives off the best energy for YOU?", but I don't see the harm in discussing using quartz crystals in a performance in some way... it doesn't absolutely have to be in a negative or causing harm way...

i've always been fascinated by psychometry for example, doesn't mean I have to believe in it - it just means I think its a fascinating "what if!" kinda thing... one of the best shut-eye books about the subject is very much applicable to certain facets of mentalism (ted andrews)...
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Darkness
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Iain well said. We just have to accept some people enjoy being challenging and negative, its habit and conditioning. There is a time and place for constructive debates, its up to us to strike a balance. This thread should have concluded by now. It would be nice to share the dance floor. It may encourage the wallflowers Smile This seems like Martins Café. One of the reasons I hide in the basement. Come visit its a less confrontation vibe for the most part and you are free to discuss 3 degrees of separation without harsh judgement, imo.
IAIN
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I'm fine with martin, we've butted heads a few times, its the nature of the beast during these online discussions, especially if you feel very strongly about certain subjects...happens on forums a lot...i just think trying to restrict any kind of beliefs and the discussions of them on here might stifle a bit of creativity...there's lots of stuff on here I don't agree with, most of it I ignore and focus on the other stuff...but I get why it can be irritating if it goes against what you think is right...and sometimes I cross the line and get involved in things I shouldn't...

so if anyone is a wallflower, don't be - if you wanna join in, go for it, stick to yer guns and say your piece, I do...why not?

maybe if we all gave martin a reading he'd feel better about it? *joking*

i think for those who don't know me well, they'd be very surprised about what I do and don't believe in...its just its not my place to say it while I'm on here that's all...

should we boycott derren and the others named? no. And if we did, would they care? of course not...

if you have issues with particular users and its a bit of an intense topic, we've got PMs, or maybe swop email addresses and have at it, even better (if and when possible) meet up via skype or (heaven forbid!) face to face! imagine that in this day and age...

rather than worry about what we can and can't discuss belief wise, why don't we focus on just getting along, and accepting each other's beliefs instead? I've yet to see any online discussion where one party has suddenly said "ooh, you know what? I've been wrong all my life! and thanks to you I've seen the error of my ways! thanks!"

we don't need an extreme argument of "well, that's all well and good - if you think its ok that some people scam others.." NO ONE IS SAYING THAT...*smile*
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Martin Pulman
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Darkness wrote:
Iain well said. We just have to accept some people enjoy being challenging and negative, its habit and conditioning. There is a time and place for constructive debates, its up to us to strike a balance. This thread should have concluded by now. It would be nice to share the dance floor. It may encourage the wallflowers Smile This seems like Martins Café. One of the reasons I hide in the basement. Come visit its a less confrontation vibe for the most part and you are free to discuss 3 degrees of separation without harsh judgement, imo.


Oh, I don't know, Darkness. You seem to be rather more vocal on here than me, given I've posted 2,000 times in 13 years and you're at over 800 in just over 1 year. Some people have even made it to over 10,000 posts. I think I have to step up my game if it's going to be MY Café!

But all opinions are free to be expressed. It doesn't mean all opinions have to be accepted, or even respected.
Davit Sicseek
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Martin posts have been some of the best on the Café in the last year or so.
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
Darkness
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Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 28, 2015, Darkness wrote:
Iain well said. We just have to accept some people enjoy being challenging and negative, its habit and conditioning. There is a time and place for constructive debates, its up to us to strike a balance. This thread should have concluded by now. It would be nice to share the dance floor. It may encourage the wallflowers Smile This seems like Martins Café. One of the reasons I hide in the basement. Come visit its a less confrontation vibe for the most part and you are free to discuss 3 degrees of separation without harsh judgement, imo.


Oh, I don't know, Darkness. You seem to be rather more vocal on here than me, given I've posted 2,000 times in 13 years and you're at over 800 in just over 1 year. Some people have even made it to over 10,000 posts. I think I have to step up my game if it's going to be MY Café!

But all opinions are free to be expressed. It doesn't mean all opinions have to be accepted, or even respected.


You are right there is no comparison between you and I when it comes to negativity Smile I am vocal when I feel I need to be and there is a lot to be vocal about in the Penny that's why I typically avoid it, while others are attracted. Apparently you understand where I'm coming from, so I'm glad we agree. Now back to your post Smile
mastermindreader
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Darkness-

I look at it this way- somebody's got to defend the fort.
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