The Magic Café
Username:
Password:
[ Lost Password ]
  [ Forgot Username ]
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Should we boycott Derren Brown? (30 Likes) Printer Friendly Version

 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8 [Next]
saysold1
View Profile
Eternal Order
Recovering Cafe addict with only
10615 Posts

Profile of saysold1
Martin took off his photo Avatar recently - that personally devatstated me and I have been sad ever since.
Creator of The SvenPad Supreme(R) line of premium, made in the USA utility props. https://svenpads.com/
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18806 Posts

Profile of IAIN
Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, saysold1 wrote:
Martin took off his photo Avatar recently - that personally devatstated me and I have been sad ever since.


his eyes seems to follow you around the room, didn't they...
NEW - the bear tear

20-25% OFF MOST THINGS
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/uncle90
innercirclewannabe
View Profile
Inner circle
Ireland
1573 Posts

Profile of innercirclewannabe
Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, Slim King wrote:
It's people like Martin that make the Café caustic and keeps many great mentalists on the side line. The Café does much better when everyone is accepted as equals with none of Pulman's attacks against them. In my mind it is a discrimination against those who believe.


That's not a fair comment, Dave. Not fair at all. I can't verify the "cancer" claim made against Jerome Finley - however, I was on-line when Jerome Finley made horrible remarks about Martin Pulman's mother. Anyone who does that is nasty, and goes way down in my estimation. That is nothing about a belief system, rather, it is a viscous verbal assault, and has no place on the Café or anywhere else for that matter.

BTW - I don't know Martin Pulmam or Jermone Finley, but I'd like to think that I know the difference between right and wrong.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3053 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Thank you innercirclewannabe. I truly appreciate it.
catweazle
View Profile
Special user
918 Posts

Profile of catweazle
Slim King advocating cencorship???
Martins posts are for me some of the best here, Slim can be entertaining, but his comments are generally not a patch on Martins, however claiming martins posts are caustic are at the heart of what is really wrong with the Café, and all forums - differing beliefs cause cognative dissonance, I like to read all opinions, its the way I learn and sometimes change my beliefs, shame more people cant be more appreciative of others views.
(slinks back into a dark corner to leave it to the pros)
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, Martin Pulman wrote:
Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, IAIN wrote:
Out of interest, in what way are they scamming or ripping people off?

By telling their clients they are psychic while actually using conjuring techniques, cold reading and very basic A to Z mnemonic systems.


What of those who claim to be reading minds, analyzing body language, etc., while in fact using conjuring techniques, cold reading and mnemonic systems?

My position is that if the claims are clearly made within the context of entertainment, and no attempt is made to encourage people to detrimentally rely on their representations, there is no ethical problem. I have lots of friends and fans among hard-core skeptics. None has ever tried or threatened to expose me for unethical behavior.

So I think you may be painting with slightly too broad a brush in the statement I quoted.

Good thoughts,

Bob
Martin Pulman
View Profile
Inner circle
London
3053 Posts

Profile of Martin Pulman
Bob,

I don't have any issues with mentalists using any presentational angle: psychic, psychological or "remarkable man".

My comments are entirely directed at those claiming to be real psychics. I think you invite exposure by doing so. If, in addition, you try and guide people's lives and start offering medical advice, relationship advice etc I believe you have massively over-stepped an ethical line.

I'm aware others disagree with me, which is fair enough, but I don't think it is a subject which should be off limits-especially as psychic reading, tarot, pendulums etc seem to be ever increasing topics of discussion on the Café.
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Many readers of tarot, astrological charts, numerology, etc., make no claims whatsoever of possessing psychic abilities. And many mentalists are proficient in those areas, and demonstrate them, because they fall squarely within the realm of "mystical arts."

As entertainment, of course.
Slim King
View Profile
Eternal Order
Orlando
17517 Posts

Profile of Slim King
Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, catweazle wrote:
Slim King advocating cencorship???
Martins posts are for me some of the best here, Slim can be entertaining, but his comments are generally not a patch on Martins, however claiming martins posts are caustic are at the heart of what is really wrong with the Café, and all forums - differing beliefs cause cognative dissonance, I like to read all opinions, its the way I learn and sometimes change my beliefs, shame more people cant be more appreciative of others views.
(slinks back into a dark corner to leave it to the pros)

DGMW ... I like a good debate ... I'm just bringing attention to WHY many have left the comfort of the Café ... Because they are being attacked.

Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Many readers of tarot, astrological charts, numerology, etc., make no claims whatsoever of possessing psychic abilities. And many mentalists are proficient in those areas, and demonstrate them, because they fall squarely within the realm of "mystical arts."

As entertainment, of course.

Are you trying to convince me that when someone sits down, hands over a $20 bill and someone pulls out a deck of tarot cards they somehow think they are NOT getting a psychic reading????? ..ROTFLMAO ... Smile
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
No- I've long since given up trying to convince you of anything, because you've already made up your mind about everything.

But since you like to ROTFLMAO over anything at all, I myself find it pretty funny that you obviously didn't understand what I wrote.
Slim King
View Profile
Eternal Order
Orlando
17517 Posts

Profile of Slim King
So you agree or don't agree that most people feel they are getting a psychic reading when the tarot cards come out?
Please be clear since this is quite important to my next question.

Posted: Jan 27, 2015 04:56 pm
I work in an AMUSEMENT PARK where the sitters have to sign an ENTERTAINMENT ONLY agreement and STILL they virtually ALL believe they are getting a truly Psychic Reading.
THE MAN THE SKEPTICS REFUSE TO TEST FOR ONE MILLION DOLLARS.. The Worlds Foremost Authority on Houdini's Life after Death.....
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18806 Posts

Profile of IAIN
Its what I don't get when it comes to these weird pseudo-debates...

the answer is always "entirely dependent on the individual's beliefs and world view"...

why do some people always want to label and talk in absolutes? it does nothing for the discussion...

if someone believes in psychic ability it will be accepted as such
if someone is open minded, a decent reading will tip the scales towards being accepted but will require more (possibly)
if someone is sceptical in the true sense of the word, they will provide a solution that matches their own knowledge, experience and thoughts over what the reader is claiming..even a good one..some might enjoy it for what it is, others might want to ask questions afterwards
all things in between
and so on...and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on...
NEW - the bear tear

20-25% OFF MOST THINGS
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/uncle90
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
Quote:
On Jan 27, 2015, Slim King wrote:
I work in an AMUSEMENT PARK where the sitters have to sign an ENTERTAINMENT ONLY agreement and STILL they virtually ALL believe they are getting a truly Psychic Reading .....


Unlike yourself, I have no certain knowledge about what virtually ALL people believe.

But I'm sure I could find SOME who also believe that Disney's Haunted Mansion offers a truly paranormal experience.
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18806 Posts

Profile of IAIN
Over here in the uk, we've got a series of Celebrity Big Brother running at the moment...Slim really reminds me Perez Hilton's stint on the show so far...
NEW - the bear tear

20-25% OFF MOST THINGS
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/uncle90
Davit Sicseek
View Profile
Inner circle
1818 Posts

Profile of Davit Sicseek
Quote:
I work in an AMUSEMENT PARK where the sitters have to sign an ENTERTAINMENT ONLY agreement and STILL they virtually ALL believe they are getting a truly Psychic Reading .....


It is a rare occassion that Slim speaks the truth.

Let us all take a small minute just to celebrate this occassion...

Of course this is exactly the issue. It is the issue that all "fake" psychics must deal with. Notwithstanding the fact that they perform their fradulent and (at best) wreckless art under the context of entertainment or with an explicit disclaimer what impact does this have on the sitter?

$20 for a cheap 'entertaining' reading? That is more than a two hour movie. Think of all the other things one can buy for $20. Are people really sitting through such readings for entertaintment?

Of course not, and I think you are willfully kidding yourself if you think otherwise.

Can the same accusation be levelled at Derren? Maybe...

Yes. I've been to multiple Derren Brown shows live. I've sad beside, had interval drinks beside, walked out beside audience members that think what he is supposedly doing is the real deal. Irrespective of Derren's disclaimer, they believe whatever explanation they are provided and inject their own "pop psychology on crack" explanations without further prompting.

This is a question of damaging impact.

Derren's psychology = People put a bit too much faith in the science and spend some money on NLP training or similar that doesn't deliver what they wish.

Fake psychics = where do I start???
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
IAIN
View Profile
Eternal Order
england
18806 Posts

Profile of IAIN
We may as well throw this into the digital pigpen then...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perspectivism
NEW - the bear tear

20-25% OFF MOST THINGS
http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/uncle90
mastermindreader
View Profile
V.I.P.
Seattle, WA
12589 Posts

Profile of mastermindreader
I've been engaged in this debate for almost forty years. Only the participants have changed, the arguments remain the same.

It took a long time to work out and write the very specific PEA policy statement on the matter. Other than throwing out the baby with the bathwater and just abandoning mentalism presented realistically altogether, I see no alternative solutions.

That said, after forty years, I'm now pretty tired of the debate. Most people have an inner sense of what is right and what is wrong. We many not be able precisely define fraud and bad intent, but, to paraphrase Justice Potter Stewart, most of us know it when we see it.
The Hermit
View Profile
Loyal user
295 Posts

Profile of The Hermit
I don't get all the hair splitting on this. I have spent a lot of my life in the occult arts. Hermeticism, Magick, Astrology and Numerology have a long history and deep philosophical foundations. Believe what you will about efficacy. I have seen thousands of psychics and most are BS. I have seen some things that are very difficult to explain and I believe there is more to precognition and ESP than we may know. It is hard to lump all of this stuff into one bucket. There is a broad spectrum from con artists using metaphysical wrappings to deluded people that believe they talk to animal spirits to people who have seriously studied Hermetic arts and believe that there is something there that explains the universe in a more informed and humanistic way. It's a broad field.

That said, many mentalists use the occult arts to create a more dramatic presentation and let the audience decide. We now have Uri at conventions. Once hated, now vaunted. My issue is more with the 'exposers'. Let's face it, it was the way Randi made money. He pays himself handsomely from a non=profit and gets a lot of skeptic fanboys. The others do it to get publicity. If they are concerned about the public, there are lots of areas to focus on. I get tired of the altruistic language they use. They are engaged in an ego trip or publicity trip. Unfortunately, they do expose legitimate methods because mentalism rides the very edge of psychic phenomena no matter how you present it. It has to. DB has taken the psychological approach, but his is mental magic. Should we boycott? Who cares. What I object to is that they are using their knowledge to decide how the whole entertainment field is supposed to operate. They have an approach and think everyone else should do it their way.

It's really about entertainment and using whatever tools you want. As Bob said, you know right from wrong. Mentalism as I practice it is entertainment. My act has a strong metaphysical flavor, but is more about intuition and sixth sense stuff. I think the audience takes it both ways - real and good fake entertainment. People are responsible for their own beliefs and acting on them. If they want to give Sylvia Brown thousands for a reading, it's their problem. We may not like it, but it's not our place to protect them. The exposers can't and won't fix that problem. And, they're not trying to. They want publicity. It started with Houdini at the end of his career. He got a lot of mileage out of it. It never changed a thing.
Davit Sicseek
View Profile
Inner circle
1818 Posts

Profile of Davit Sicseek
Do you see bad intent when you watch the likes of Bill Montana?
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
Davit Sicseek
View Profile
Inner circle
1818 Posts

Profile of Davit Sicseek
Quote:
If they want to give Sylvia Brown thousands for a reading, it's their problem. We may not like it, but it's not our place to protect them.


I could agree witht his if I believed they were doing it for entertainment. Its not for entertaintment though is it?

How confident are you that your own spectators and customers see the mentalism your practice as just 'entertainment'?
Send me the truth: davitsicseek@gmail.com
The Magic Cafe Forum Index » » Penny for your thoughts » » Should we boycott Derren Brown? (30 Likes)
 Go to page [Previous]  1~2~3~4~5~6~7~8 [Next]
[ Top of Page ]
All content & postings Copyright © 2001-2020 Steve Brooks. All Rights Reserved.
This page was created in 0.16 seconds requiring 5 database queries.
The views and comments expressed on The Magic Café
are not necessarily those of The Magic Café, Steve Brooks, or Steve Brooks Magic.
> Privacy Statement <

ROTFL Billions and billions served! ROTFL