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innercirclewannabe
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Quote:
On Mar 7, 2015, Michael Zarek wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 4, 2015, David Thiel wrote:

It's a tough post to write because I KNOW that this is one of the true gems of mentalism. It's a 24 carat, 100 proof -- utterly impossible feat to present to audiences. It's impossible for them to deconstruct because, once they have seen there's no stooge, that nothing is written down...that no words are spoken -- there can be no possible answer other than they've just seen literal miracle of mind reading.


Don't wanna be disrespectful to classic techniques (CMR is still great and has some great uses) and calling it miracle of mind reading would describe it perfectly... 5-6 years ago.

I've done CMR and even invested quite a bit of money in books on the subject in the past and yet I don't do it anymore simply because the main effect (finding an object hidden in a room) isn't as powerful now with so many new prop-less mind reading effects coming out.

Not saying that CMR is no longer needed in any way (i still use it sometimes, just in smaller ways) it's just that with all the new material coming out lately, it stopped being as amazing as it used to be and mentioning that "You're actually doing this for real" as a selling point is no longer as powerful of a statement as it was 5 years ago.

Just my opinion obviously , anyone agree?

(Also I haven't read the book, so maybe it actually is full of completely new approaches that modernise it into a true and useful miracle of direct mind reading, if not than I think we need one)


Totally disagree. Done correctly, this is mind blowing. Remember that "all this new material" coming out is something that "We" only know about. Non Magicians/Mentalists don't know about the "latest & greatest", and most couldn't give a hoot. I'm not sure where you get the figure "5 years ago" from?, but I know that Kreskin ( among others) has been doing this for a lot longer, and invariably it turns out to be the main talking point, post show.

I'm looking forward to reading & learning from this book, and reading Richard's stories from the trenches on same.
Tá sé ach cleas má dhéanann tú sé cuma mhaith ar cheann.
insight
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I agree. This effect is more powerful than billets...after all, there is no writing.

Regards,
Mike

quote]On Mar 8, 2015, David Thiel wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 8, 2015, Sensio wrote:
Practical and Pragmatic
These are the basic ingredients imho of all of Richard Osterlind's material so this book is a little pricey but I am pretty sure no one will be left disappointed...

Tempted...


You make some good points, Sensio. I was thinking about this as I read through the book.

To someone who is merely curious, I agree: it's pricey. To someone who is looking to incorporate CMR into their act -- or to give it a serious look, how is fifty bucks pricey compared to the 200-300 dollars people pay for the latest electr*nic marvel or the limited edition ebook? This isn't a book of abstract thinking, it's a nuts and bolts, step by step method for developing a full routine. And you're right: it is completely practical and pragmatic in its approach.

I have to respectfully disagree with one of the previous posters. It's true that CMR has been around for a long time. But to say that it isn't something that will blow modern audiences away? Nope...not in my experience. As Iain suggested it is very much a matter of presentation. But stop for a second and tell me why this ISN'T as close to mind reading as you can possibly get. No pump*ing. No words exchanged verbally or with writing. It can be performed any place. Any time. Close up or on stage. No props. No prep. No batteries. No confeder**es. No angle or lighting considerations.The volunteer simply thinks of where something is hidden or to be delivered and the performer knows what they are thinking. It's got drama and a powerful mystique.

Of course there is a method. But how is this not mindreading?

I didn't choose to champion this book because Osterlind wrote it. I honestly wouldn't do that. I chose to get behind it because it's a superb product and, as such, it deserves to be brought to the attention of those who might use it. Of course I don't expect mentalists all over the world to start performing this. They won't. It doesn't fit everyone's style and there is a lot of hard work to get it even close to stage ready. And actually performing it for strangers for the first time will, in fact, make your knees sweat.

My attention and ambition are fixed on the delightful expectation of what I will have in my performing arsenal once I have complete experience and confidence in the system.

I'm backing the book for the performer who looks at this and sees CMR for high impact effect it is. That's the guy who will have his whole mentalism act transformed by what he learns in performing CMR.

David [/quote]
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On Mar 9, 2015, insight wrote:
I agree. This effect is more powerful than billets...after all, there is no writing.

Regards,
Mike



No doubt that CMR, properly done, is powerful. So are billets. That's why many top performers use both. In fact, I've frequently combined the two in a single routine.

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David Thiel
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For the record I didn't say CMR was better than billets. I love billets. I love CMR too.

David
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mastermindreader
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Quote:
On Mar 9, 2015, David Thiel wrote:
For the record I didn't say CMR was better than billets. I love billets. I love CMR too.

David


I know that, David. Insight apparently decided to continue his devaluation of billet work that he started on two different threads, and to which I've already responded in Inner Thoughts. I have no idea why he chose to do it in this thread rather than in that one.

Sorry for straying from the topic, but as a billet worker all my life, I couldn't let that little shot pass.

Based on your insightful review, I'm looking forward to reading Richard's contribution to CMR work. I'm sure it is a valuable addition to the literature.

Good Thoughts,

Bob
insight
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But David, which one is as close as one can get to real mind reading? Based on your words in this very thread, your answer is CMR.

Regards,
Mike



Quote:
On Mar 9, 2015, David Thiel wrote:
For the record I didn't say CMR was better than billets. I love billets. I love CMR too.

David
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Bob, if you read the very first post in this thread, do you know what rating David gives this? The answer is 6 out of 5 billets. I agree with David that CMR and not billets is the closest thing to real mind reading. Now, don't get me wrong. I still give billets a 5 out of 5 billet rating, as David probably would too. But that extra billet...that one has to go to CMR due to the impossible conditions, including no writing---just as David mentions. So, hopefully now you see my comments in this thread are simply to remain on track with David's thoughts...comparing CMR to billets is not out of the realm of discussion even on this thread.

As far as devaluing billets, no...I have always said billet work can also be powerful.

Regards,
Mike

Quote:
On Mar 10, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 9, 2015, David Thiel wrote:
For the record I didn't say CMR was better than billets. I love billets. I love CMR too.

David


I know that, David. Insight apparently decided to continue his devaluation of billet work that he started on two different threads, and to which I've already responded in Inner Thoughts. I have no idea why he chose to do it in this thread rather than in that one.

Sorry for straying from the topic, but as a billet worker all my life, I couldn't let that little shot pass.

Based on your insightful review, I'm looking forward to reading Richard's contribution to CMR work. I'm sure it is a valuable addition to the literature.

Good Thoughts,

Bob
David Thiel
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I'll tell you, Mike: I'd also give billet effects six billets out of five. Smile

Here's why: some of the most powerful effects in all of mentalism can be done with billets. The classic CT. Name and Pl*ce -- which has been in my performing repertoire for several years now...not to mention 4DT and the many ways they are used in everything from Q and A to the occasional drawing dupe.

I think some people get hung up on the idea that a thing or word is written down...and they see that as a weakness. It's not a weakness at all. When I'm asking someone to write down their thought, I tell them that we live in busy worlds...that in order for me to really try to draw the information out of their minds, they have to concentrate on a single thought. What focuses concentration more than writing it or drawing it? When you're doing so, you are completely focused on the task at hand and won't think about whether or not you remembered to lock the front door, or where you're going for lunch tomorrow.

Read some of the excellent essays in books like Ran Pink's T-Rex or Osterlind's PCT. It's absolutely true that people often forget that they wrote anything down in the first place -- and if they remember...it's thought of as something incidental -- meaningless. It really is a matter of presentation.

I used "nothing written down" in a very long string of things that I talked about with reference to CMR. From my perspective, it DOES feel like mind reading when I perform it. But so does revealing the contents of a CT or the circumstances of a first kiss.

Do I think one is stronger from an audience perspective? I'd have to think hard about that. For me CMR is new and, as such, really is drawing a lot of my attention right now, whereas my hands remember how to do the billet effects I perform and they really are second nature to me.

I was frankly surprised to see postings here that asserted that CMR was stronger 5 years ago (and I truly don't understand this. If the effect blew audiences away 5 years ago...what changed?)...or that there were other propless effects that are more powerful. Personally -- I've never been as blown away by an effect as I was the first time I actually saw CMR performed. Is that just me? I'm honestly not sure.

To be honest, I see billet effects and CMR very much on the same footing. It's not the answer you wanted to hear...but the fact of the matter is that my act would be devastated without billets but could survive the exclusion of CMR. I just happen to be much more excited about CMR at the moment.

David
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insight
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If writing is not a weakness, why use the "no writing" language to describe CMR as "holy grail" material? It seemed like that was a big deal for this effect for you per your posts above. Or simply, that I was mistaken in your assessment of this CMR. Sorry if I misunderstood.

Regards,
Mike

Quote:
On Mar 10, 2015, David Thiel wrote:
I'll tell you, Mike: I'd also give billet effects six billets out of five. Smile

Here's why: some of the most powerful effects in all of mentalism can be done with billets. The classic CT. Name and Pl*ce -- which has been in my performing repertoire for several years now...not to mention 4DT and the many ways they are used in everything from Q and A to the occasional drawing dupe.

I think some people get hung up on the idea that a thing or word is written down...and they see that as a weakness. It's not a weakness at all. When I'm asking someone to write down their thought, I tell them that we live in busy worlds...that in order for me to really try to draw the information out of their minds, they have to concentrate on a single thought. What focuses concentration more than writing it or drawing it? When you're doing so, you are completely focused on the task at hand and won't think about whether or not you remembered to lock the front door, or where you're going for lunch tomorrow.

Read some of the excellent essays in books like Ran Pink's T-Rex or Osterlind's PCT. It's absolutely true that people often forget that they wrote anything down in the first place -- and if they remember...it's thought of as something incidental -- meaningless. It really is a matter of presentation.

I used "nothing written down" in a very long string of things that I talked about with reference to CMR. From my perspective, it DOES feel like mind reading when I perform it. But so does revealing the contents of a CT or the circumstances of a first kiss.

Do I think one is stronger from an audience perspective? I'd have to think hard about that. For me CMR is new and, as such, really is drawing a lot of my attention right now, whereas my hands remember how to do the billet effects I perform and they really are second nature to me.

I was frankly surprised to see postings here that asserted that CMR was stronger 5 years ago (and I truly don't understand this. If the effect blew audiences away 5 years ago...what changed?)...or that there were other propless effects that are more powerful. Personally -- I've never been as blown away by an effect as I was the first time I actually saw CMR performed. Is that just me? I'm honestly not sure.

To be honest, I see billet effects and CMR very much on the same footing. It's not the answer you wanted to hear...but the fact of the matter is that my act would be devastated without billets but could survive the exclusion of CMR. I just happen to be much more excited about CMR at the moment.

David
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I think we need to get away from trying to make a comparison between different types of techniques and what is better. There's a time and place for each method.Yesterday, at a conference in Italy, I was demonstrating contact mind reading. Someone asked me if I could find a playing card from a group spread out on the table. I explained I could, but I would never do that as there are many other more expedient ways to achieve that effect.

I don't use peak wallets often, but there are certain instances where they are the best solution to the problem. Each technique should be thought of as a tool to accomplish the desired result. It's not a competition.
insight
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I agree and am not saying one is better than the other. Both billets and CMR have a place in a full performance. But, what I am saying is that one is more powerful. One is more like real mind reading than the other. One is a closer, while the other is an opener. I don't think we should be afraid to point out that CMR does not allow for a "he must have peeked" or a "that pen was technologically equipped to communicate" explanation from the spectator. If it is real mind reading we are after, it makes sense to me to close one's show with something that is so powerful, so propless, so process-free (yes, writing is a process and spectators aren't stupid to realize as such), that it appears impossible to explain other than the real thing. CMR fits these conditions. That said, I think billets can certainly be incorporated as an opener in one's show, and thus, this argument is not about which one is better. Both work, but only one fits the criteria to blow the spectators away.

Regards,
Mike

Quote:
On Mar 11, 2015, Richard Osterlind wrote:
I think we need to get away from trying to make a comparison between different types of techniques and what is better. There's a time and place for each method.Yesterday, at a conference in Italy, I was demonstrating contact mind reading. Someone asked me if I could find a playing card from a group spread out on the table. I explained I could, but I would never do that as there are many other more expedient ways to achieve that effect.

I don't use peak wallets often, but there are certain instances where they are the best solution to the problem. Each technique should be thought of as a tool to accomplish the desired result. It's not a competition.
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Quote:
On Mar 11, 2015, insight wrote:
I don't think we should be afraid to point out that CMR does not allow for a "he must have peeked" or a "that pen was technologically equipped to communicate" explanation from the spectator.


Ok, but let's take the no fear approach all the way to "he must have been a stooge."
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I take your point, Mike. But what I keep trying to communicate is that one ISN'T more powerful than the other. It's not about what is performed, it's about HOW it's performed and WHO is performing it and WHAT they are doing with it. Surely you've seen Bob Cassidy perform Name and Pl*ce. Can you possibly truthfully say that it's not pee-your-pants powerful?

As Truman raises in the above post, why wouldn't they suspect either a stooge or an "instant stooge" -- if not going all the way to "confederate?" It's a valid point. How are these presentations being framed? THAT'S the issue.

Think about it: the seed to growing believability in a performance is planted in the way it's structured, the way it's presented. Look at the vast lengths we go to show that we're not using electron**s in performances.

To me CMR is amazing simply because there really IS no gaff...no prop. But there IS a method. Because billets are physical items, does that mean that using them -- applying the method -- makes them weaker from an audience perspective? I honestly don't think so.

Saying that a billet routine is an opener and a CMR effect is the closer? Or that one is inherently more "powerful" than the other? Nope. I would classify some reactions I've seen to billet routines as having "blown away" the audience.

It really is a matter of content and presentation.


David
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Neither CMR or billet routines are good openers. Neither (except for Q&A with billets, which is too involved to be an opener) are "major" effects that involve the entire audience.

But yes, I agree that many people just assume that a CMR demonstration involves a stooge or a secret confederate in the audience cuing the performer. As David said, it's presentational skills, NOT METHOD, though, that makes an effect powerful.

It seems to me, though, that insight is more interested in getting people to take his side in a debate than in having a meaningful discussion based on the real-world experience of working professionals.
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Quote:
On Mar 11, 2015, mastermindreader wrote:

It seems to me, though, that insight is more interested in getting people to take his side in a debate than in having a meaningful discussion based on the real-world experience of working professionals.


Sadly too often the case around here. Performers who perform for live audiences receive more feedback than quarter arm chair backing.'

By the time you show here you should have some experience under your belt, be able to ask 'intelligent' questions and your methods practiced and your methods a non-issue.

Sound harsh? Yeah, but it would save a lot of time.

Best,

Scott
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Quite simply, the Osterlind book on Contact Mind Reading is "All Killer, No Filler."

As David says, there is no fluff to fill a bunch of pages just to make the book bigger. It's straight forward, easy-to-follow instruction.

I read the book quickly and immediately asked my wife to hide something in the living room.

I used the techniques Richard teaches in the book and after wandering around the room for a few minutes I didn't exactly find the item but I came within about two feet of it.

My wife started to get a little bored and said "it's right there." LOL

Friends and family are not the best subjects to practice with but the point is the system works and I could definitely tell when I was getting close even though it was my very first attempt at it.

Highly recommended!
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On Mar 12, 2015, SeattleSteve wrote:
Quite simply, the Osterlind book on Contact Mind Reading is "All Killer, No Filler."

As David says, there is no fluff to fill a bunch of pages just to make the book bigger. It's straight forward, easy-to-follow instruction.

I read the book quickly and immediately asked my wife to hide something in the living room.

I used the techniques Richard teaches in the book and after wandering around the room for a few minutes I didn't exactly find the item but I came within about two feet of it.

My wife started to get a little bored and said "it's right there." LOL

Friends and family are not the best subjects to practice with but the point is the system works and I could definitely tell when I was getting close even though it was my very first attempt at it.

Highly recommended!


Well done!
The question is whether or not we eventually try it with non friends and family where our mistakes count much more. Do we take the plunge or leave for next Monday as people often do with diets?
I hope you get my point about this vicious cycle where starting with friends and family we get average results and then feel less enthused to try with non friends who keep a stricter eye to our average succeses...
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truman
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As a suggestion to bridge the gap, you could try CMR when you've already acquired the information you need through another method. That way, you'll succeed for sure, but you could be testing yourself at the same time to see if you could have succeeded with just the CMR.
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Truman- That's always been the way I have suggested to learn CMR.
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Bob, I've also seen Annemann say something along these lines in the Jinx, usually taking someone's wrist to locate their card when it's already known.

Along the lines of the discussion earlier, I just saw the following in The Jinx, Volume 67. It sounds like Neuman was the Satori/Hanussen/Bishop/Brown/Polgar/Hellstrom/Cumberland of his day:

Quote:
John Neuman, now about 80 years of age, has returned to this country when everybody for years has thought him dead. Shades of Charlier! Neuman is a muscle reader par excellance and in the late nineties was tops with his work. He took the Nov. S.A.M. members by storm and those, who didn't know of him nor who didn't know their history could say little more than "plants" and "confederates," the "locations" were that fast and certain.
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