It still amazes me some people really believe that Dad Stevens existed.

Oh c'mon...You don't get a name like "the Mysterious Kid" if you are not real. Or do you??? LOL

Having met Vernon at the Magic Castle in the early 1970s, all I can say is he liked to play with people's heads, in a nice way, for the fun of it.

The Mysterious Kid. That's ridiculous and hard to believe. But...The Unknown Kid...now that is something else again and has a certain ring of truth to it.

I talked about that "Mysterious Kid" with prestigious Magicians. Many went almost nuts when I suggested he was made up by the mischievous Vernon.

Sometimes Magicians make me scratch my head... But when you are still stuck with Erdnase one century after his book, you can believe all the stories made by Vernon I suppose.

Marlo invented many characters as well. One was funny, Cuban name, but I can't remember it at the moment.

I know Mysterious Kid, she has the best Zarrow Shuffle!

Marlo wrote a booklet on the face-up bottom deal, complete with photographs, in the late sixties I believe. It was reputedly invented and used by a Mexican or Cuban cheater. I can't remember the name but this may be what you are alluding to.

Marlo admitted years later that the Mexican or Cuban cheat was fictitious. Marlo wrote he made up the character because more magicians would buy the booklet on the bottom deal if they believed it was developed and used by a real professional cheater. Being Mexican or Cuban made it even better. He may have mentioned this in Seconds, Centers, Bottoms but I don't recall exactly.

When I met Jennings at the Castle at the time of my Vernon, Ose, Giorgio meeting, Jennings was extremely interested in the booklet. I told him it was really BS and he would not get much out of it, but he asked me to send him a copy when I got back to Vegas. I said I would but subsequently could not find it. Evidently I had tossed it so I had to send Jennings my regrets in this regard.

Often, the K.I.S.S. principal can be applied quite successfully in order to attempt to answer questions similar to the one which asks - "did Dad Stevens really exist?".

In general terms, and somewhat similar to the Erdnase question, it might be said that there is a far greater likelihood that any given person will describe to you real people that they've met, than there is a likelihood that same person will completely contrive somebodies existence from within their imagination (little children and the mentally ill excluded).

It is therefore safe to say that there is, in terms of "odds" - there is a much greater likelihood that Dad Stevens was a man Vernon actually met than there is a likelihood he was a figment of Vernon's imagination.

Please note that I"ve not stated that Dad Stevens absolutely existed, only that in the absence of all evidence to the contrary, there is no real reason to presume Vernon was lying about having met him.

If you are thinking of Manuel Pedro, he was from the imagination of Frances Ireland Marshall, not Ed Marlo.

"Edward Marlo and Laurie Ireland published the Havana Deal in 1948. This stud-type bottom deal was the first of its kind and when Marlo tipped it, Ireland was immediately impressed. At the time (1946) the move was strictly sub rosa and cardmen were able to keep good moves under wraps for longer periods of time. Ireland eventually persuaded Marlo to publish before it was kicked around and leaked into the mainstream. From a marketing standpoint, however, a bottom deal technique wouldn't have much appeal to the average consumer. Frances Ireland had a solution. She understood that magicians coveted secrets, especially "gambling" secrets apparently devised by mysterious card cheats. So, Frances invented a fictional character named Manuel Pedro and sold the technique as the "Havana Deal from Cuba."
~Jon Racherbaumer - The Looking Glass, Summer 1996

Do tell of some of the other characters that Marlo invented.

Marlo's Havana Deal was published in 1948.



No. See my post above.

Marlo did mention this in Seconds, Centers, Bottoms. See The Havana Deal or "The Myth of Manuel Pedro".

Marlo did not describe the technique in that book.

That the booklet I was alluding to. I did not know it was published in 1948 as I acquired a copy in the late 60s.

My, these magicians are devious, aren't they?

@Artie

Sorry my friend, but the opposite is true. There is no real reason to believe that "Dad Stevens" ever existed as well! Can you imagine an old timer cheat revealing all his secrets to a young guy he has never met before? Dad Stevens was supposedly in his mid-seventies when he met Vernon in Chicago. Do you imagine a 75 years old guy nicknamed "The Mysterious Kid"? I can imagine a former card counter with more or less the same age nicknamed Cagliostro, but "Mysterious Kid"... And why only Vernon has ever talked about him?

That Dad Stevens is supposed to have made piles of money using his control. REALLY???? At the usual speed we shuffle at any gambling table, do you really believe you can cull and stack cards using his control? I spent months on it, and using standard procedures, it's very very very difficult to stack more than 1 card using a decent speed! At some point I managed to stack two cards with a low error ratio but I needed 6 riffles on average. And there's the cut, needing 1 riffle more. Frankly, I prefer to get one card from my last hand and one from the deadwood. It's easier and faster.

I'm convinced he made up that character (and many others!) to add salt to his stories. I like Vernon, I like his Magic (hey, I dedicated two quizzes to him ) but just watch a few hours of his Revelations series and you will realize fast that he invents many facts (not uncommon with old people).

@Kabbalah

Yep, that's the name I had in mind. Thanks for the details. "She understood that magicians coveted secrets, especially "gambling" secrets apparently devised by mysterious card cheats". Geez, I wonder who was targeted with this comment :p.

No, I can't imagine it. Nor can I imagine an old time card counter/professional gambler divulging any of his secrets to a beyond middle aged senior who likes to demonstrate dated gambling moves and has never been there.

Nope, can't imagine that at all.

Despite a bit of banter, it's these little bits of information that I love the gambling spot for.

There is an footage from 30s-40s of one old left hand gambler doing amazing riffle culling/stacking and cuts. I believe he is doing some similar technique to Stevens shuffle/cull but a lot easier. I have no idea how he could locate Aces that fast (must be strippers)...

Some additional framework for discussing "The Mysterious Kid":

1) 3 well known authors note Stevens in their works, Vernon, Fulves, and Jennings. There may be more I'm not aware of.

2) I've seen 2 people, both well known to this specific forum, perform the shuffle flawlessly and at normal shuffling speed ... it can be done. Some of you have also seen these two same folks shuffling flawlessly, undetectably, and at speed ... I know for a fact that you have.

3) There are additional references to Dad Stevens which exist outside of Vernon's reference. They aren't well documented, but they are there. You can locate some of them right here on the Magic Café.

4) Persi Diaconis in his opening comments in Revalation notes that what has become known as Stevens work is Vernons work. It's only at the end of the book where that work is then identified as coming to Vernon FROM Stevens. (this, if anything, should be the evidence explored for those who don't believe Vernon's story about Stevens).

5) Vernon's "story" of Dad Stevens also contains a very specific backstory related to how he was first made aware of Stevens work. If he is making the story up, it contains an incredible level of detail, both before and after he meets Stevens.

5) Vernon's references to Dad Stevens definitely weren't short or "off the cuff":


Vernon: "You could write a whole book on nothing but Riffle shuffling, on block transfers as Marlo named them. Stevens never talked about a block transfer..."

Freeman: "He was the one who initially gave you the idea..."

Vernon: "Oh, yes, yes, he was the one... I couldn't detect anything he did. But he started us thinking about things like that. Everybody in magic's heard about 'Stevens can run-up and Stevens' control'..."

Ammar: "Dad Stevens."

Vernon: "... and all that kind of thing. He was a fellow who made a lot of money, bought a $250,000 home [...] in Illinois, on the outer side of Chicago. He made a fortune gambling. They used to call him 'The Mysterious Kid'. The only time I ever cried watching a magician, tears came to my eyes when I saw him work. I was in my late 20s at that time - I thought if a fella went to Alcatraz or Sing Sing Prison with a pack of cards and they told him that at the end of twenty years they'd let him out or he was going to be condemned to death [unless] he learned to do certain things he might have accomplished something like that..."

Ouellet: "He was that perfect?"

Vernon: "Oh, PERFECT! Tears came to my eyes 'cause I knew enough about cards to know... 'cause he'd take an ordinary pack of cards, let you shuffle [Vernon grabs the deck], he'd let you shuffle the pack and he'd say: 'Now Vernon I'll show you something you've never seen before [Vernon's Riffle shuffling by now],' and he'd just give the... and without any hesitation whatsoever [he'd] get three-of-a-kind on top, I mean NO hesitation, none whatsoever. None of this kind of thing [mimics a clumsy Riffle shuffle, sighting cards as they fall], none of this business... He'd just take the cards and he was talking, 'You know some people...,' and he'd shuffle like that and he'd say, 'Cut the cards,' and he could hop the cut beautifully on a pick up, beautiful... anyway, and then he'd have three-of-a-kind. And I stupidly said to him, 'Is it possible to get four?' He got sore, he said, 'Four! Who the hell wants four!? Three-of-a-kind, if you can't win with those you should give up playing cards. Who wants four? You'll get thrown out on your ear if you deal yourself four-of-a-kind.' He didn't care about a trick, all he wanted to do was have three-of-a-kind playing Poker."


It's probably worth noting here that, with far greater resources than any of us here have access to, there are well known researchers and authors who are firmly on the record as stating that they have uncovered enough evidence to (at least for themselves) confirm the existence of Dad Stevens as a person in history that Dai Vernon actually met.

It's possible that only those with direct access to the likes of Persi Diaconis will posess the requisite additional information on "The Mysterious Kid" to form opinions based on new and original evidence.
The rest of us will have to make up our own minds about "old Dad Stevens" based on the research made available to date.

1) They use the word "Stevens" in their work, but as far as I'm concerned none of them say they met him or that he ever existed.

2) I don't know who are the guys you are talking about. On video, so far, one of the best versions I have seen is from David Ben. Unfortunately, it's far, very far from the average speed used even in my amateur games. Very far. Besides, the way he lifts the cards wouldn't pass and he's far from following regular/standard procedures as well.

3) I did spend some time in the past searching the Café for Stevens. As far as I can remember, but I may be wrong, I found no evidence at all he ever existed. Sayings, hypothesis, but nothing concrete or tangible.

4) I'm not sure why what Diaconis says here (at least the way you understand it) would be an evidence. Maybe my poor English? That said, Diaconis is born 30 or 40 years after Vernon has supposedly met Stevens who, being 75 by that time, was dead for a long time. So, Diaconis can't have met Stevens and all he knows is what Vernon told him. And I agree Diaconis knows a lot more than Vernon released to us.

5) Frankly, I can invent stories like that easy. 10 per days if you want.

Lemme give you a tip. Vernon talks about Poker, etc. Yet, during Stevens time, far before 1900, they didn't play Poker, but Faro mainly. It's a mistake Vernon made several time while inventing stories. If you want I have tons of other mistakes he did. Allow me to be clear, Vernon is on of my Magic idol, but I certainly don't buy whatever he said .

Every time I read a post here I keep changing my mind about Dad Stevens. He did exist, he didn't, he did, he didn't. Personally I really don't care that much but it is intriguing to say the least...and...it did get a discussion going that was more interesting than some of the previous ones.

Here is the problem with the cull which has already been made. Even if you could bring three of a kind to the top in three or four shuffles and do so at speed, after that number of shuffles what would you do with those three cards? I guess if you were a bottom dealer and brought them to the bottom instead you could deal base from there assuming a cut card was not used and you could deal from out of the hand. However, after three or four shuffles to cull you really can't run up hands at this point except for a demo where you are talking to people and using 10 shuffles to accomplish the entire endeavor. (That is not to say you could not do something with those cards, but stacking is pretty much out.)

Also I should mention if you know the top card before you start your shuffle sequence, you only have to cull two cards to get three of a kind. Four of a kind from scratch is almost out of the question unless the desired cards lie perfectly in the deck. Moreover, did not Vernon mention in the Inner Secrets of Card Magic series, I think it was in volume two on the Pull-Through and Strip-Out shuffles that he got them from Dad Stevens? Those actually were very good moves at that time.

However, it would be intriguing to see someone do this particular cull shuffle without hesitation and at speed. In the magic/demo fraternity there are a lot of anecdotal stories of this guy doing this or that because some other guy told someone else he heard of it. That does not make the story untrue, but without visual verification it does strain credibility.

Just so that you know, I met Vernon once when he was in his late 80s or early 90s at the Castle. Although I respected the man greatly and liked him a lot for what he had contributed and developed for close up magic, gambling wise I was not impressed with his knowledge. It was "magician" type gambling stories and techniques he related, not hustler methods. Outside of Erdnase type manipulation, no disrespect to Vernon, he would be lost in a high stakes poker game with pros.

As far as stacking with the riffle in high stakes and fast company games, putting the desired card on top and then stacking from there is really more for magician type demonstrators. When working with partners you already know the location of some desired cards when they are tossed in, one or two may already be in position but in any rate, you sometimes have to riffle in the difference. If not done cleverly against observant players, culling the cards is where one is most likely to be suspected, regardless of how well one does his riffle run-up. Even Erdnase mentions that in fast company games you have to pick up the cards as they lay, you just can't pull out the ones you need.

Hey, good posts guys.

Now back to my Overhand Shuffle practice. LOL

I agree with your last line Arnold. I think people make their first mistake with Dad Stevens when they presume he was primarily a poker player. As you note, Faro was the game of choice circa late 1800's. Although poker was well established at the time, it was seen primarily in private games as opposed to "gambling houses". Stevens would certainly know poker well, but we can't know exactly what capacity he made the large amount of money (for the time) Vernon alluded to ... enough money to buy a huge house on the outskirts of Chicago with scratch made only from gambling.

David Ben touched on Stevens and the Faro element in detail a few years ago both publicly and privately. Ben will be (no doubt) exploring it in great detail within the years to come according to his latest blog posts. As Ben is the keeper of the Vernon Estate, it will be an interesting read when it surfaces.

Diaconis making a comment at the beginning of the original book stating succinctly that the work was Vernon's seems to me like a comment worth following up on for those in the "Vernon = Dad Stevens" camp. An editing error perhaps, for Diaconis to make that comment in the introduction, and yet the author of the book (Vernon) gives a completely different credit in the body of the book. It's an extremely odd discrepancy to say the least.

I'll note again that I've not said anywhere that Dad Steven's did exist for certain, but it's also important to say that (like Erdnase), all we can offer is our personal opinions, each of those opinions equally valid. There are no hard facts to date which clearly describe Stevens as either a real person, or a figment of Vernon's imagination.

...but I sincerely enjoy the "point-counterpoint" Arnold, as it causes me to reach for books I haven't looked at for a while now

Cag, going way out on a limb ... I believe there is a school of thought out there that operates as follows:

1) Dad Stevens developed his work to suit gaining an advantage at Faro, not poker.
2) Vernon took what Stevens showed him, and then Vernon made the mistake of thinking it was applicable only to poker, overlooking Faro entirely.
3) What has become known as the assorted "Stevens" work actually is something of Vernon's own creation, but entirely based on what Stevens showed him originally.

The premise of this line of thinking is that the reason the Dad Stevens story seems full of holes is because Vernon leads us to believe it's all related to poker, when in fact, it's all (originally) related to Faro.

The "Stevens Control", et al is Vernon's interpretation of what he was shown, and isn't what Stevens actually showed him.

But I've said too much.

@Artie

I also like our conversations a lot.

Back to topic, if Stevens had skills for Faro... it has nothing to do with what Vernon describes then. How do you apply the Stevens cull to Faro? The players don't touch the cards...

@Artie Fufkin:

Good points above. Since I am not that much acquainted with the ins and outs of magicians' works and magic lore, I really can't comment on your suppositions because I come from the gambling side of the equation.

There are many things that can be done in a Faro game, and none of the info from Vernon has any relation to that. But Faro was THE game back in the day.

I don't know if anyone is implying that the Stevens' Cull was or could be used in Faro. If so, IMO it is not a very good way to go in that game. There are much better methods. However, if Stevens had other techniques that he divulged, or techniques for Faro, that is a different story but I see nothing to substantiate that.