Actual a candle on stage is most definately a prop Iain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theatrical_property

However I think this is the root of the question and not based on semantics or the word "prop". There are clearly items that are gaffed which we call props to create a tricks or illusion, there are items that are props that are used to create atmosphere or drive a story like a gun or a breakaway table or chair. However, I think the poster is referring to hiding behind an object of any kind to substitute for the ride of the story. I think they can co-exist and enable each other to fully entertain, where telling a story may be too dry or boring. you also have to be at a higher level of story telling and acting to pull it off. How many of us are at that level and is it wrong to use props to help make it interesting.

I would certainly like to know who is doing a show with no props and if they are, what kind of stories or effects are being used. I just find it hard to believe we should avoid them because the poster was upset he saw 5 acts he didn't like. The thread was created from a rant so to speak. Maybe not a bad thing because its the first really conversation we have had in a while so thanks Mr. Gray. I just wish you would addess the observations and comments directly. No rush, I'm sure you're busy.

There is certainly lots of content in spooky, you could spend days reading good stuff. It's a bit dry the last little while, but it's not dead. Who knows, maybe this thread will be 11 pages I hope we don't keep repeating ourselves

In our context I would say a prop is something that is used during the presentation...whereas static non interacted with objects are stage dressing...

Semantics I guess hiding behind any object is wrong call it what you will. Is a book a prop?

Why call I semantics and then continue?! Ha!

Personally, if I had a stack of books around me doing nothing, its dressing, if I use it or someone else does...then its a prop.

Whats a candle for?

To hold back the Darkness, you know that.

Contextual lighting...can we move on and just be fine with not agreeing?

Okay, maybe this will help...

In professional theatre, the definition of a prop is not semantics. A prop is an object that is handled by the actor during the performance. Set dressing is anything that just sits there and doesn't move. Which means that a candle can be either a prop or set dressing.

So why the differentiation? Just for practical purposes. Set dressing is provided by the set dressing crew and props (which often have to meet specific requirements or serve a specific purpose) are provided by the prop crew. Props go on one list and set dressing goes on another list. Yes, in a lot of cases, most of it comes from the "prop room," but the terms are there to keep things in order.

Hooray! I was right!

There may be... bigger questions here?

We illustrate own own thread.. ;-)

Yup!

I think not all props are created equal or used for the same reason.
A candle helps to support a story, a gaffed box does as well, a book (gaffed) or coin are all objects that may or may not be used in excess or be relied on too much, over story.

I think if you are in demonstation mode of gaffed items we are talking about something else which we all agree is silly.

When does a prop become a problem (is that the question)? Can we narrow that down, or is it what I mentioned above and it's cut and dry and story over?

I love this thread!

I think props don't make a good Performer, but they can enhance the experience and make everything more belivable.

I just witnessed a, let's call him "not so gifted" performer with excellent props at a psychic fair. It was one of those sideshows and the show was treated as a authentic Seance hosted by a genuine psychic.
Since I needed a break anyway I decided to attend the show. The stage dressing was very nice, there was a nice old table on stage which had a nice wooden box on it. For the bysitters they had nice old chairs up there, I was really exited.
I want to make things short, the guy was up there definatly without a script and not that good in improvising. He did some "ghostwhispering coldreading" just using barnum statements, but even though the reading were weak, he got some of the people exited.
When he got to the seance part, he opened the box and I belive it was a Wiseman De4d R1nger he pulled out there and a copy of r00ms3rvice.
He got 2 people on stage and run so fast through the presentation, totally hasty and when he was contacting the person he had chosen, the bell rang directly after his questions.
Like a machine gun: Are you there? Ding!
May we ask you some questions? Ding!
Did you die a normal death? Ding Ding.
And so on!
The audience had no time to breath and there was no time for them to make an emotional connection or anything. And then BAM, it was over.
The applause was very limited and the words fraud and fake were heard.

I was like shellshocked, he had gold up there on stage, effects and props you can do a whole evening of solid entertainment with, real reputation makers and he blew everything in about 30 minutes.

He was also killing his business, he was sitting the rest of the day almost alone in his booth.

So, no, the props are not making the Entertainer and they cannot carry a complete show, they are just as the word implies: props!

Regards

Sic

I seem to have touched a nerve - & I'm glad that I have - not only to instigate my own investigation, but to engage the well-respected & thoughtful voices that have contributed to this thread & in private messages to me.

My purpose for beginning this thread is ultimately about the deeper consideration of bizarre magic as an ART FORM. Not as a trivial entertainment.

I am a working performer. I have to maintain a certain standard - I have to challenge myself with each new project - I have to consider & re-consider every facet of my own out put. & I must call upon my fellow performers during my journey. I call upon them for their expertise, their guidance, their insight & the possibility that I missed something or have overlooked something. I will not be a fool & create a performance all by myself, without outside eyes.

There is a trend - I have witnessed it - of performers who are relying on mechanical or gimmicked props, or set pieces, or other assorted paraphernalia to do the work for them. My impulse to comment on this trend was not a rant. It is a serious consideration of what new (& experienced!) performers are accepting as suitable performance-making. It is easy to understand why this trend has come about - especially in regards to the (justifiably) exciting discussions about the wonderful products of Bizarre's finest craftsmen.

But that can not (& should not!) be the defining aspect of Spooky. The Magic Café is a sort-of mecca for magical discussion. As performance artist Adrian Howell's used to say, 'It's all allowed.' But perhaps it isn't. Perhaps Spooky is content to be just what it is. A rolling register of Bizarre's newest inventions.

Perhaps I should seek out somewhere else to discussion the Art of performance making. But what a shame.

I have no answers. I'm offering up questions.

But allow us to challenge each other from time to time. A community does not grow by remaining stagnant or comfortable with 'well, that's just the way it is'.

Allow us to consider the bigger picture - theatre, story-telling, poetry, literature, music. We have to grow, we have to be informed, we have to be curious. We must understand context. We have to do the research to understand why certain performance trends were popular at a certain time. Just because a certain routine or performance piece was successful at a certain time does not mean it will be successful now.

I just want the creative output of this community to matter - rather than languish on someone's studio bookshelf.

I've been reading this thread with great interest, can I give a simple example of some "real" magic that I helped create with my two girls, we were in the park and it was a lovely hot sunny day, we all laid down on the grass and looked to the sky, while we were having fun seeing what animals shapes we could see in the clouds, when it occured to me, we could try cloud busting. Just the right day, just the right clouds. The story of "The storm cloud and the sun". We bust those clouds good. Two amazed kids and one very happy Dad. It felt like real magic. That inner excitement again, just the right kick in the ass for a dad who was becoming quite cynical in his (not) so old age. No props (apart from the clouds) is that the type of thing we are talking about, but a little more spooky ?

@louis - I think its more about not relying on the props to do the spookiness, to not expect the prop to come with the entire hook, and to instead, employ our own deeper thinking on how to achieve what we want, rather than going completely off the peg as it were..that's how I've seen it anyway...

There is a place where magic as an art form is frequently discussed, along with philosophical and practical aspects of performance. It's called www.bizarremagic.net.

I understand the Magic Café is also a place where magic as an art form is frequently discussed, along with philosophical & practical aspects of performance.

Mr. Timothy Gray --

Your point is well taken and there are few places to go deeply into the aspects of Bizarre magic. I have been a long time member of the Shadow Network -- where such discussions regarding philosophy, scripting and the use of props and setting have been included in talks of origins of ideas of where bizarre magic belongs in the spectrum of performance.

Unhappily our membership is dying off -- most of us are older than some of the magical eras we represent in performance -- including medieval. But we have a world wide base at our foundation. We recently lost one of our better members our beloved Ed Solomon (DeNomolos) who believed inn creating props that aided his ability to make a dramatic point and was not afraid to share his methods and skills of prop making along with his reasoning and scripting ability.

The roots of bizarre magic for performance lay in a scattered number of fields -- coming together with some very odd rationales. We reflect upon superstition, olde timey practices (magic or not) that seem strange, beliefs and fictions in the imaginative fantasies of humanity AND the artifacts of humanity. For many years I was an up front illusionist performing for trade show events and hauled big props around. But I realized that just demonstrating the props was not enough -- the story and involvement of the individuals in the audience in the piece were of more importance than the prop itself. I also realized that continuity of ideas into segments (scenes) also brought strength to presentations as does the continuity of a play or well made film.

The properties and tricks of bizarre magic can and are often mindlessly used -- just as are the cabaret and stage illusions are used -- to present a trick -- NOT and idea. This, indeed takes little thought or personality. Scripting becomes a "to do" list to get through and making sure music cues are correct. Some people are great at that type of spectacle and even circus performances are memorable when done with skill and panache.

But other than enjoyment (good in itself) what does the spectator take away from such spectacles. The idea that some people (often those who can afford the props) can apparently cut up women in one box and restore them in another -- or not chop off the specter volunteers head with a guillotine. And yes -- I had blindly done this in some of my acts WHILE I learned better but doing exactly what you call for in you initial post. More deeply discuss the ideas included in and behind what we are doing and why we do them. However, in our fast moving techno based society, many find they do not have the time to develop an act, a manner and a persona to be a skilled performer of meaningful wonders.

One of the hardest prejudices I had to overcome was that against mentalism as a free standing performance art. No props here -- just a charlatan pretending to read a mind (a la James Randi's critiques too quickly accepted in my youth.) But then I only saw performers like Gellar and Kristin -- one a fraud the other outlandish -- neither admirable. I knee jerked this into many years of negative reaction to more bizarre performances -- and wondered about why anyone could find this believable...or entertaining.

Then I became aware of Eugene Berger's work, Jeff McBride and Richard Osterlind. Different approaches magical entertainment -- but each in their own way bringing WONDER to the performance -- but not a wonder of "how did you do that" as puzzle thinking -- but wonder at the story of how they got that way -- or more to the point how we ALL are that way.

I note that the Lovecraft, Vampire, Zombie and Poe crowd of performers probably use more props and settings than many of us -- and a lot of them depend on the props and lore surrounding those areas of interest. Some of the actually think through scripts with continuity ion mind. There are more Jack the Ripper routines than one could imagine with a lot of magicians dressing (hopefully not smelling) like 19th Century London. I feel the resurgence of Victorian magic with steampunk dressing is great -- for props -- and some have thoughtful presentations that bring forth emotion and primal feelings that belong to that setting. But is the over-all performance well scripted, mailing as point about humanity and our conditions of existence. And does the performer have the imaginative presentation to make it work consistently on an emotional level? Or do they use one prop of tis type join a larger show context to make a segment for atmosphere?

In my ideas surrounding performance I see a proclivity for magicians AND mentalists not to involve all the senses. Smell and touch, to me, are as important as sight and sound. And a good bizarre performer learn that sensory deprivation is a tool too -- if used wisely. Wrapping this in the mumbo-jumbo of occult vodun practices, hints of Santeria, curses of demons, serial killers, mad people incarcerated in horrible conditions, folk stalkers (skin walkers, werewolves), or ancient civilizations (Egyptian because I like gold leaf) gives us an opportunity to creatively grab and shake the sensibilities of an audience.

Back on props -- you gotta get lumber and nails to build a house -- even a doghouse. My process is to research and (when I can afford it) acquire props that fit the story I am trying to tell. I like things with historical significance. It has been more than five years I have been working on a new theatrical seance -- slowly acquiring (or upgrading, or building or trying to build) those things that will allow me to craft not one act -- but a series of shows that never have to move from a single venue -- and can be fresh for returning audiences with multiple paths planned for the various audience moods discovered in performance.

Some of the work -- palm reading, auras, tarot -- take little work for me (even though the Barnum statement IS part and parcel of that work) BUT I do bring my setting with me with curtains, special table, signs, timers and stage dressing that says Psychic Entertainment to parties where I work with 25 to several hundred people as part of a larger social event. Some magic and mentalism works in with a mix of billets, pocket writing and gaffs -- but this, to me, is part of the ad lib style of bizarre magic.

And - with props -- such as planchettes flying off Ouija or letter boards -- my feeling is they only work ONCE a night -- and those that see it happen are amazed -- and there will be some that miss it. How a spirit in a seance can communicate with the living is not limited to props and words -- but subtle introduction of previously unknown ways of observing things or valuing them in the audiences experiences.

For me, this has been a semi-lonely journey. Even with conventions and such, I have not had the wherewithal to travel and meet many like minded arcane magicians who use only the bizarre and most of my contacts are through on-line correspondence and performance,

So, your quest to have a "different" discussion is well taken -- and I suggest you (and those interested) PM me here if they want more information about the Shadow Network before we all die off,

So I guess that's a no to actually addressing comments and observations directly that's ok.

You raise a valid point re: relying too much on props, which we all get. But props are not always a bad thing.
May I ask what props you use and how you either deemphasize them or use them to enhance your stories?

You may not have answers but you must have opinions and observations. Where and when do props fit in for you, or do they?
I get the idea you don't use many props and I wonder what style of presentation you use.

For instance if you have an hour show do you talk for most of it?