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PsiDroid Inner circle 2164 Posts |
This is not for everybody so don't feel accused if you are not: yet I noticed a trend of armchair people who think they know it all because they got Corinda and Annemann and bought their first nailwriter
::mr. max maven once sung as a hero then thrown in the deep pit: ::richard osterlind only because he disagree with you or because you don't like one of his takes on q&a ?? :: but I could go on and on insight: a wannabe member here whos wanting to lecture bob cassidy on how intelligent people don't like mentalism with playing cards ?? people making fun of gregory arce one of the finest contributors here generous with ideas and time : someone whos been in magic and mentalism twice the lifetime of some posters here and why this sense of confidence [clearly fake confidence] with most pros and creators as if you were their best friends just because you bought some book they wrote ?? |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
I still think much of it comes down to the differences between mentalists and magicians, combined with the forum format which mistakenly allows members to think they are somehow peers or equals just because they have direct access to them on the forums. Posting also come from different perspectives - one from experience (for some lifelong, real-world performing experience) and the other - theory, opinion (not facts), an amateur or non-professional access and perceptions. There is a difference between a real working entertainer and an armchair performer.
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Alwow Special user Los Angeles 544 Posts |
I believe we could take this much further and ask why society today believes that their opinions or lives are of such importance that others will believe it is noteworthy enough to be shared or that we SHOULD care. If many of us stopped to think what value do my thoughts add to this conversation and why should anyone care about my thoughts (similar to the sage advice of "Why am I performing this effect for people?" & "Why should they care?") I believe much of the bickering and bashing would likely diminish not only here or even message boards in general but, in our everyday lives.
I'm the type of person that when I speak often times people listen because I want my words to generally have value and sustenance within in them. but who cares what I think as it's just my opinion...
"Everything I show you is the truth... And the truth is the loveliest of lies"
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Withnail Special user 974 Posts |
Sorry, you lost me. Just started drifting off ;-)
Yet again that oaf has destroyed my day
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4187 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, Mindpro wrote: Actually I think it is far simpler than this and has absolutely nothing to do with the difference between magicians and mentalists, or between amateur and professional. A lot of it comes down to respect rapidly becoming an outdated concept. Thanks to the internet giving easy access to guys like Bob, Richard O, Banacek, and countless other top pro's as well as the easy access to info, many people today have a sense of entitlement. Likewise the anonymity of the internet allows people to show the kind of disrespect that would earn them a right hander in the real world. In this modern age the need to earn ones stripes is all but eroded, for us old timers you had to earn the right to sit at the same table as the Bob Cassidy's and Richard Osterlind's. You didn't necessarily have to be a full time pro but you definitely had to have put in the hard yards and be able to bring something to the table. Personally I think there is nothing wrong with debating with the likes of Bob and Richard as long as it is done respectfully and politely. Sometimes it is a great way to learn, to use the example of theorists vs working pro's, put your theory politely and respectfully to someone like Bob, and he will likely give you a detailed explanation from his vast experience of the holes in that theory if they exist. Put it in a rude and disrespectful way and he will simply tell you that you are wrong, if he bothers to respond at all. These forums can be a wonderful place, but access to people and info is not a right, it's a privilege and if we fail to recognise that a time will come when it is neither a right nor a privilege, it is simply a memory. Mark |
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Withnail Special user 974 Posts |
The 'I want it now' generation of YouTubers. It's only about the secret, not the magic - hence the attacks.
We are the guardians of the chest... And we all know what's in it
Yet again that oaf has destroyed my day
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Tony Iacoviello Eternal Order 13151 Posts |
Mark
I think it is simpler than that. It just boils down to a lack of manners and respect for others, as I see it. |
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Mark_Chandaue Inner circle Essex UK 4187 Posts |
Tony
That's exactly what I meant when I said "A lot of it comes down to respect rapidly becoming an outdated concept" Mark |
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george1953 Inner circle Mallorca (Spain) 5943 Posts |
These days there is little respect for anything or anybody. Only last night I was watching a comedian working one of the local venues here. I looked at the people seated on the outside terrace, about 40/50 people. Nearly every one of the was gazing at a cell phone screen ! The comedian might as well not have been there.
He battled on getting little or no response, I felt sorry for him.
By failing to prepare, we are preparing to fail.
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
I think it is lack of manners and respect - its also because the forum means you can be a huge @sshat as much you like - and there's no comeback...even here, get banned, set up a fresh account...
there's professional trolls on here - you can spot them because there are a few interesting behaviours from those people - things that normal users do, but these guys never do (if I reveal those behaviours they will then manifest themselves, and probably be done badly) but the clues are there if you are interested... so for whatever reason(s) that they people exist...that's up to them - it just something that happens online to people with empty lives and/or huge egos... i can live with the angsty angry teenagers, its kinda their job to be a d**khead at that age isn't it... inversely however, I am surprised at how thin-skinned some people are...and sometimes a straightforward opinion that isn't insulting or similar - can be made to look like you are being rude, when you're not... we should point out any bullying behaviour - no matter who it is from...
I've asked to be banned
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, george1953 wrote: While it's a bit off-topic but at the same time relates to the points being made here, today's past few generations (since the popularity of DJ and video games) does not know how to attend a live performance. They do not understand the proper expected behaviors, attitudes, courtesies and respectfulness. They approach such things by taking their typical normal behaviors into these situations. We all understood that there were specific behaviors etiquette and expectations for certain venues and environments - school, work, library, church, movies, live performances, theater, funerals, court, job interviews and so on. Today there is little consideration, understanding and respect for any of this. Today they take their one behavior and believe the environments should accept it as is. Pertaining to entertainment, all recent generations seems to know is bar/pub/nightclubs and concerts behavior. All more of an anything goes, few rules environment. I notice this with audiences under 35. They don't know when to be quiet, when to applaud, how to respond, when to turn their phone off, and don't get me started on the whole yelling out loud/heckling, "look at me I'm funny/cool" mentality. I agree the "paying your dues" concept is entirely lost to these generations, which therefore leads to it being impossible to exert respect. Heck people today don't respect themselves or their families, why on earth would they care about or respect proper processes, age-old traditions and "old-timers"? |
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, Mindpro wrote: |
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jstreiff Special user 701 Posts |
Social media is a key enabler. The media now tell people their opinions matter, all in an attempt to gain legitimacy for their own online presence. Truthfully, does Beyonce or any Kardashian really care what most people think? Do most people have sufficient insight to even have an opinion in most matters? Likely not.
That same mentality finds its way here. People have the idea that others ought to care because anyone writes something including myself. If it is observational commentary like this post that is one thing. But when the posts become distasteful, vengeful or derogatory and especially when this behavior comes from those who have clearly not paid their dues in a community where traditionally experience and longevity has been valued, then things are twisted and actions are crossing the line. This situation becomes even more ridiculous when more experienced members, often successful working pros, must defend their quite reasonable positions to what is essentially opinionated rank amateurs who are certainly not their peers.
John
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Mindpro Eternal Order 10585 Posts |
Exactly, well said.
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Jheff V.I.P. 402 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, Tony Iacoviello wrote: Manners and respect, for sure. But I think you can make it even simpler: ignorance. If these folks knew who Cassidy, Osterlind, Arce, etc. are, maybe they would treasure their thoughts. I think it obvious that these posters have no idea who they are addressing and they should. Then, again, with so many people using fake names (another problem this forum has, or used to have, if they have corrected said issue) some may feel that the big names aren't really the actual people but ne'er-do-wells stealing names for their handle, which has indeed happened and still does. Personally, when I see a big name on TMC that I haven't seen before, I sometimes wink at its authenticity. But I will still respect that person. - Jheff
Marketplace of the Mind PARIMENTAL, a 200 page exploration of a classic Martin Gardner principle, is now available!!
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IAIN Eternal Order england 18807 Posts |
Ignorance, broad brush strokes, rudeness and the entitled "i'm right, you're wrong" attitude does not belong solely to the youth of today...
I've asked to be banned
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Cervier Inner circle France 1274 Posts |
I remember reading such discussions decades ago, when Internet became "public", in the late 90'. I myself had recently discovered it, forums were only on usenet and there was something called "netiquette".
Then kids (?) got in. Kids... or older people. Anyhow... Users who didn't know Netiquette and didn't care. It was like a mob invading quiet salons. At that time, believe it or not, I was an authority in the field of paintball. I remember one day, I poltely told a newbie his, ahem, "analysis" didn't match my experience. His reply was rude and coulb be sumarized as "get lost". Some people I didn't know on the forum asked him if he knew who he was talking to. He said he didn't care and some friends of his jumped in. Total newcomers... That was about 20 years ago. I guess that's what happen when (some) people talk to other people they've never met, never seen play or perform. Except from education (or unusual intelligence), where could respect come from? Let's talk about magic, if that doesn't bother you. I pick magic as an example because I don't have any "young mentalist" around, but there are flocks of young magicians everywhere. Find footage from the best magician you can think of from "old times": Fred Kaps, Cardini,... Ask a young magician what he thinks of the performance. "Boring". And the analisys of said young magician won't be that the taste of audiences have changed, no, it will be that "old guy" was overrated and HE can do better. Let's talk a short bit about Internet, forums, and generally speaking, written messages. The tone of your voice doesn't get through. It's too easy to write in a manner that's unvoluntarily ambiguous and can (will) be perceived as negative. In that respect, I found smileys to be an excellent invention People who wouldn't be so touchy in real life become hyper-sensitive. I know: I do! Finally, a quick word about disagreements. Very simply put, a student can (a) like or dislike his teacher and (b) agree or disagree with him (her). When does the student learns best (theoretically)? - well, if he doesn't like the teacher, he's not going to listen to him/her or won't like what he hears, so... - if he likes the teacher and agrees, he learn, but... - if he likes the teacher AND disagree, then he's going to think about arguments, reasons, about "why"s and eventualy, will learn better. It's when I disagree with mentalists whose opinion I value that I think the most
"A friend is someone who know you well but loves you anyway" H. Lauwick
The Lynx Deck, http://jmmaries.free.fr/cervier/ Grapheeteez, on GooglePlay Telemos the peek envelope, on SkywardMagic Telemos en Francais sur TheMysteryStore |
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insight Inner circle 3095 Posts |
My position is that one can disagree, but it must be done respectfully and logically. I do think that a healthy debate can be constructive to the goals of the magic Café.
Though I may not share in all views of Bob Cassidy, I certainly have much respect for him. It is no wonder then that I even recommended him as a content consultant for a fellow performer. Regards, Mike Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, PsiDroid wrote: |
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Lord Of The Horses Inner circle 5406 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, Mark_Chandaue wrote: You are, of course, right! And THAT made a difference. Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, IAIN wrote: That's one of the CONS of the internet age. If a few clicks of a mouse ban you, other few clicks, coming from another mouse can reestablish an account or create a new one. Quote:
On Apr 13, 2015, Jheff wrote: Jheff, I wholeheartedly agree 100% on this.
Then you'll rise right before my eyes, on wings that fill the sky, like a phoenix rising!
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truman Special user 635 Posts |
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On Apr 13, 2015, Withnail wrote: The more things change... "When one reads history and sees how the old timers guarded their secrets, to the extent that only through apprenticeship could a person learn magic and start out for himself, then it becomes easy to see why the magic of today is not looked upon as being mysterious, but rather as a form of entertainment." ~Theo Annemann, The Jinx, Volume 27 |
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